Episode 71 – Interview with Marnie Ogg, a leader in science-based tourism

Welcome back to Season 10 of Let’s Talk SciComm! We’re thrilled to be back with you for another season of fantastic conversations exploring how we can all communicate about science in more effective and engaging ways.
To get the season off to an amazing start, we’re thrilled to have caught up with science tourism and dark skies guru, Marnie Ogg. With over 17 years of experience as a Managing Director at Dark Sky Traveller, Marnie has seamlessly combined a passion for astronomy, tourism, and conservation to curate unique and unforgettable experiences for travellers and communities alike. As a dedicated Dark Sky Defender, Marnie holds a Diploma of Psychology and a Diplome de Francaise, leveraging these qualifications to champion the protection and promotion of the night environment, while educating and inspiring diverse audiences.

Among her notable achievements are securing the designation of Australia’s first Dark Sky Place, founding and spearheading the Australasian Dark Sky Alliance, orchestrating a Guinness World Record attempt, and managing a pivotal report for the Commonwealth Government on light pollution. Through these endeavors, Marnie has developed skills in facilitation, public speaking, project management, and conservation, all while striving to leave a positive and enduring impact on our world.

You can follow Marnie and learn more about her work here:

Transcript

Jen (00:00:21)
 Hello everyone, and welcome to season 10 of Let’s Talk SciComm.
 I can’t believe we’re at season 10, Michael. What do you think?

Michael (00:00:28)
 Double digits, it’s a special number.
 And we have been on a bit of a hiatus, so it’s really great to be back.

Jen (00:00:34)
 Yeah, it is. So we’ve been busy with a few other things over the last couple of months, but we’re absolutely wrapped to be back.
 Michael and I have missed talking SciComm with one another. And oh, we’ve got some great guests lined up for this season, Michael.

Michael (00:00:47)
 We do. And you’ve been doing some international travel Jen so I believe we might have some international guests lined up.

Jen (00:00:53)
 Yeah, that’s my goal, right? When I go traveling, I’m constantly on the lookout for who would be wonderful for us to chat to on Let’s Talk SciComm.
 And happily, a whole heap of amazing people have said yes, so stay tuned for a great season ahead.

Jen (00:01:13)
 Hello, everybody. It is such a pleasure to welcome you to another episode of Let’s Talk SciComm.
 I’m Jen. And as always, I am joined by my wonderful friend, colleague, trusty sidekick. I don’t know, what else can I say today?
 Michael, welcome.

Michael (00:01:31)
 Hey, Jen. Yeah, very excited to be back after a bit of a hiatus.
 And is this our 10th season now?

Jen (00:01:37)
 I think so. We do need to double check that.

Michael (00:01:40)
 Woo-Hoo. Double digits.
 If it’s, if it’s not, I’ll be editing that bit out.

Jen (00:01:44)
 Yes, you will be. That’s exactly right.

Michael (00:01:46)
 But very excited to be here after a hiatus.

Jen (00:01:49)
 Well, I am very, very excited to introduce you to today’s guest, Michael.
 Because Marnie Ogg is someone that I’ve had just the great pleasure of working with for a number of years now.
 I think maybe five, but I also didn’t count that exactly.
 But Marnie’s also someone I consider a really dear friend. She’s one of those extraordinary people who knows the answer to nearly everything. So if anyone’s got any questions, you just ask Marnie.
 But in Australia, certainly, and also internationally, Marnie’s name is really synonymous with dark skies, fighting light pollution, protecting the planet.
 Marnie, it’s such a pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you for making time for us.

Marnie (00:02:29)
 Thank you so much for inviting me.
 I’m really excited to chat with you and share all sorts of bits and pieces of dark skies and communication, yeah.

Michael (00:02:38)
 Oh, great. And Jen speaks very highly of you, Marnie, so I’m really excited to chat with you today.

Marnie (00:02:42)
 No pressure.

Michael (00:02:43)
 And uh, yeah. No, no pressure that Jen set you up there for saying, “you know the answer to every single question”. So… We’ve got some hard ones.

Jen (00:02:52)
 Oh Michael, you know when there’s just somebody who you are fortunate enough to work with that whenever you come up against something you think, “Oh, I don’t really know how to do that”.
 Marnie is the sort of person that, because she’s had so many diverse life experiences and career experiences, often she just knows the answer. So…

Marnie (00:03:08)
 I am definitely a Jill of all trades and master of none, but that’s fabulous…

Jen (00:03:08)
 Well, actually…

Marnie (00:03:15)
 That gives me access to a lot of different people as well, which is great.

Michael (00:03:18)
 Yeah, great.

Jen (00:03:18)
 Well, I would say you’re a master of many trades. So let me just, before we start questioning you about some specifics, let me just fill in for our listeners what you actually are a master of.

Jen (00:03:29)
 So Marnie, you’re incredibly passionate, as we’ve said, about dark skies, about astronomy, about conservation, about a sustainable planet. Also about tourism, which is one of the things we really want to speak with you about today.
 So for the last, I think nearly 20 years, you’ve been the managing director of Dark Sky Traveler. This is your own organisation, which the whole goal from my understanding is to give travelers the opportunity to travel and explore the world, but from a different angle to a lot of travel.
 Your focus is about science, sustainability, education, awe, these things are all your priorities when you are organising incredible trips.

Marnie (00:04:08)
 Absolutely.

Jen (00:04:09)
 You also founded and lead the Australasian Dark Sky Alliance (ADSA). Currently, you’re the manager of outreach there. That’s where I’ve had the great pleasure of working with you for a number of years now.
 And you’ve done some incredible things through ADSA, fighting light pollution, really raising awareness in a massive way about dark skies. Orchestrating a successful Guinness World Record attempt to educate thousands of people about light pollution, and we are definitely going to ask you about that later.
 You also secured the designation of Australia’s first official dark sky place. You wrote and coordinated a massive report for the Australian Commonwealth Government about light pollution.
 I mean, you’ve done a lot of things. You’ve got a background in psychology, but really this unbelievably diverse skillset. And I’ve seen firsthand how that allows you, as you said, to work with different people in all different places and really to make a meaningful, positive impact on the world.
 So I just, yeah, Marnie, I think you’re amazing. And there’s so many things we could talk about today. You really have a wealth of experience communicating about science in different ways and different, you know, with different people.
 But we always like to go back a bit in our podcasts. So tell us, where did your love of astronomy come from? I know you haven’t had a straight career path. I know there’s been music and many other things in the background. Tell us a bit about Marnie and how you got to where you are now.

Marnie (00:05:34)
 I was asking somebody about their career the other day. And they said that their career was “squiggly”, and I think that’s a beautiful summary of my career as well.
 So both my parents were scientists. Dad was a vet, my mom’s a biochemist. You know, every holiday was a camping trip out in the outback, and a lot of time was spent… My dad particularly loved the night sky. And he would look up and say, “Look, there’s a satellite, and there’s Jupiter, and that’s the ecliptic, because that’s where the moon, the stars, and the planets all align.”
 And I guess I was just always attracted to being particularly out in the great outdoors, surrounded by animals. You know, every animal we saw in the bush, Dad had a story about if it was sick, he’d go and try and rescue it.
 And I guess that love of being in an environment that is actually an educator in itself has strongly been with me.
 And yet, I didn’t want to be a scientist. I found the institution of studying really difficult. And I guess because my four walls of education is nature. You know, it was just a little bit too small for me. And that’s not making it wrong for anybody else. I very very much value people that can do it.

Michael (00:06:48)
 I guess there’s only so much you can learn from books and reading stuff online. And getting out into the outdoors, there’s probably lots more opportunities to, for learning experiences that are unique to certain locations, I would imagine.

Marnie (00:07:05)
 Well, I think… So Jen mentioned briefly there I also have a psychology background. And I’d done a lot of, I’d done about three and a half years of study.
 And one of our… It was actually doing a section on post-traumatic stress disorder, which was highlighting the fact that the higher the level of emotion that you were experiencing at that time, correlates with the higher, the longer, and the most, more severe levels of post-traumatic stress.
 And then they talked about the inverse. And I was thinking, well, isn’t travel the place and the time that you are in your happiest space? You know, you’re not stressed, you’re not anxious generally, you can have a new environment that can enrich your life. And therefore, it’s a really very valuable platform for people to learn.
 And so if I can combine my skills with travel management, and with this psychology background. And get people involved that have these very rich backgrounds of knowledge, to communicate to these wonderful guests as they’re traveling, we’ve created this absolutely perfect environment for people to learn.
 So it’s beneficial for the travelers, because they’re in their happy place, and they’re learning. And they’re, often they’re going to places that they would never ever get to otherwise.

Michael (00:08:24)
 That’s really interesting. And I guess some of those places where there’s no light pollution. And I would imagine light pollution is something that you often communicate about.
 So I’m really curious to learn a little bit more about light pollution. I guess I can’t remember the last time I saw a really nice, full, starry sky, because I’m living in a big city at the moment.
 So where do I need to go to avoid all the light pollution? How much of a problem is it?

Marnie (00:08:53)
 Well, it’s the world’s fastest growing pollutant, and probably because it’s not even recognised.
 We see light as a benefit to society. And in many ways it is. You know, we’ve got a 24/7 economy now. We can create spaces that are safe, or at least perceived as safe. We can have entertainment wherever we go.
 And light doesn’t hurt us. You know, it doesn’t make us cough. It doesn’t make us feel sick. In fact, it’s the good light. It’s got all these psychological benefits as well.
 So we’ve implemented it into our urban environments without thought.
 And as you say, most people now who live in big cities don’t get to see a dark sky. In fact, 80% of the world’s population don’t see a dark sky.

Michael (00:09:41)
 Oh wow.

Marnie (00:09:55)
 Australia is one of the best places in the world. It’s the darkest continent by far, except maybe Antarctica.
 And we’re doing a lot to preserve that. And in fact, Australians are very lucky that you could probably take a drive, even out of a major city for an hour and get a dark sky.
 And again, just harping back to the last point, it’s a happy place. You know, people who get into dark skies suddenly feel calm. They feel connected to the world. There’s a whole lot of senses going on there that they wouldn’t normally.
 You know, they rely on their sight, and they stop hearing, and they stop feeling the environment, whereas getting into a dark sky environment does that.
 But look, there’s so many places around the world that have… And often with a deep cultural connection. So some of the canyons in America have a very strong folklore or historical lore around the benefits of that area, healing. And whether it’s night-related or not, it’s often a very spiritual place.
 Even in Ireland, Michael, County Mayo, there’s lots of places there that seem to have long-held traditions that go back to the night.

Michael (00:10:56)
 Hmm, I have a friend who lives in County Mayo. I’ll have to ask him if he knows about that. Yeah.

Marnie (00:11:04)
 Yeah. So I’m not sure if I’ve answered your question, but it is a bit of a journey to get to them.
 And if I can segue to something else, I think in many ways, dark skies and Antarctica, Jen, have a connection because they both require you to make a bit of effort to get to them.
 They are areas that we can disconnect from quite easily. You know, night, we disconnect by going into our house and turning on our living room lights.
 And Antarctica, because it’s just so far away. And it’s those natural, pristine areas that people actually have a biggest emotional connection to, I think, possibly because they need to make that journey.

Jen (00:11:47)
 Yeah, Marnie, I was going to ask you about Antarctica later, but let’s go there now, because you and I did have just the most incredible privilege of traveling to Antarctica together recently as part of Homeward Bound, which I think listeners have probably heard me talk about before. We’ve certainly got some wonderful guests lined up from this voyage.
 So Homeward Bound is a leadership initiative, a global initiative for women and non-binary people with a background in STEMM who really want to make a difference for the future of the planet.
 And Marnie, one of the things, I mean, you and I had so many wonderful conversations with Antarctica as a backdrop, which is something never to be taken for granted.

 But I’m interested in, you know, you’ve talked about how you got into what I’m just going to     use ‘science tourism’ as a shortcut for, I know it’s broader than that. But you were talking about being frustrated at Flight Centre, that people just wanted to go to Bali so they could sit at a pool and drink cocktails. And you knew that travel had the potential to be so much more powerful than that.
 So how big a role does awe play in what you’re trying to create for people? Because for us in Antarctica, awe was unbelievably transformative. Transformative is a word that gets overused. But you can never be the same person when you’ve had the chance to see Antarctica and to think about that place and how that place is being changed by human impact.
 So when you’re thinking about, you know, when you moved away from Flight Centre and had this understanding from your study in psychology about how people can be changed by really emotional experiences, is it all about awe or is it actually bigger than that when you’re trying to take people out of their day-to-day and get them to think about their place and their, their impact in the world?

Marnie (00:13:26)
 I think it’s bigger than that.
 Awe is definitely part of it. Seeing an environment that you’ve not experienced before, having that inability to find the right words to express what you’re seeing.
 And I often think of Antarctica as being what the astronauts must see when they go up into space, because even though modern astronauts have seen planet Earth from above and they know what they’re looking at, they still come back and talk about this overview effect of seeing the world in a different way and seeing that ozone layer so small and you know, seeing how vulnerable we really are.
 And I guess that’s partly what happened to all of us in Antarctica too. We realised how vulnerable the planet was. I don’t think that that happens alone though.
 So if you were feeling, and this goes back to the post-traumatic stress stuff. If you were feeling vulnerable and scared to the point that you couldn’t take it in, you wouldn’t have that impact.
 So I really think that safety, creating a safe environment is absolutely critical for people to feel and to totally get the right experience. You know, if you feel safe and respected and listened to, and you have, you know, a genuine two-way conversation, you learn much… I know, I learn much better in that environment, so yeah.

Jen (00:14:54)
 Yeah, absolutely. I think looking after people. You know, we can think a lot about the big picture of how we hope people might change their relationship with the planet and the decisions they make each day about the impact they have on the planet and all the things that I would imagine pretty much everyone listening to this podcast cares about.
 But you’re right, Marnie. We can’t forget about individual people and their own experiences and what they are dealing with in any day or minute or month or year that might get in the way of them being able to develop their thinking as you’ve talked about.

Marnie (00:15:26)
 The only negative experiences I’ve ever had on tour are with people who are frightened.

Michael (00:15:34)
 What are people frightened of?

Marnie (00:15:36)
 In dark skies, it’s just that they haven’t been out in the dark.
 So many people, we talk about 80% of the world’s population not seeing dark skies.
 And it’s interesting, it’s a lot of people in England who particularly report to me, “I have never been out in the dark,” or, “We’ll need a torch”, or, “We’ll need, can we turn all the lights on?”

Jen (00:15:58)
 Like that kind of defeats the purpose of why we’re here.

Marnie (00:16:02)
 Yeah. And so sometimes it’s a matter of transitioning people really gently into it. And the easiest thing with any dark sky education program that I organise is to start at twilight.
 ‘Cause you then, you know, you have the natural dimming of the night sky and your senses pick up slowly. You know, that you’re compensating with, so…

Michael (00:16:23)
 So can we talk a little bit more about these tours?
 And so let’s imagine it’s twilight now, you’re taking Jen and myself on a tour.
 Where are we going? And what are you communicating as part of the tour?
 I imagine it’s a bit of a balance because you’re getting all sorts of different kinds of people on these tours. And I suppose you have to be a little bit flexible in how you run them.
 How does it all work?

Marnie (00:16:48)
 So if I was to take you on a tour of the night sky or a night environment. Yeah, I tailor make everything. So it would be very much about where we are. You know, if we’re in County Mayo or out back New South Wales.
 Often I don’t want to do it by myself, partly for the fact that I’d like another set of eyes and ears on the group. But also, I’d love to have a local or a person who has special knowledge that comes on the tour with us so that we’ve got a bit of an opportunity to make that conversational.
 I guess we can bounce ideas between us. I would be starting at dusk. As you said, I would be looking at the group. You know, is it kids, is it adults, is it elderly people?
 You know, what are the restrictions with walking distances? Is it just something that we stand in a really nice lookout and watch the stars come up?
 If they’re asking lots of questions, then let that be the guide, because you know, that’s what they’re there for, that’s what they want to learn.
 But sometimes you get audiences that are very very quiet and want to enjoy that quiet. And sometimes, particularly if you’re talking about the wonders of the universe.
 You know, you’ve got out into the bush, you’ve walked in there. As we’re walking along, you know, we’ve got crickets or birds or frogs. You know, we draw people’s attention to that.
 And if we can, we’ll talk about the native species and whatever knowledge we have about them. We might talk about cultural connections if that’s appropriate, but also, we might just stand there and listen.
 And yeah, I have seen the most amazing things with people just standing still and then turning to a complete stranger and holding their hand because there’s something in it that they want to share, you know.
 And I think, Jen, we had those moments in Antarctica too, where we would just walk up to somebody and want to put our head on their shoulder ’cause it meant so much. You know, it was…

Jen (00:18:40)
 And start crying, like I am now.

Marnie (00:18:54)
 So, and maybe that’s the other thing is, is not being scared of showing that emotion, showing that it means something to you and that it’s a privilege to be there.

Michael (00:19:07)
 And do you still feel that emotion, even though you’ve done lots of trips?
 I guess each one is different and each one is new?

Marnie (00:19:13)
 Yes, I do. And I do that deliberately. I love that question. Thank you, Michael. Because I, even if I’ve been there before, I look at every place I go through new eyes. And I try and remember what it was like the first time I went there.

Jen (00:19:26)
 And Marnie, you talked earlier about the importance of creating safety for people. And you’ve just been really beautifully vulnerable with us and talked about the fact that this is really emotional for you.
 You know, you care about these people, you care about these places, you care about the future of the planet.
 Is you showing emotion, presumably at one level, that’s creating a beautiful safe space for other people to experience emotion? You know, if one person expresses vulnerability, that creates safety for other people to do the same.
 So on the one hand, I can imagine that’s a really important part of your role. But on the other hand, you talked about people being frightened.
 You know, have you worked with people who find it frightening for you to express emotion? I can just imagine for some people. You know, people would have very different responses to you allowing people to understand that this for you, this isn’t necessarily just about making money or about raising awareness.
 This is hard work for you. This is stuff you deeply care about.

Marnie (00:20:23)
 That’s true. Haha, I think I’m able to choose the right time and the right place. I wouldn’t walk into a room and burst into tears and say, “You know, this is…” But I think it’s pretty…

Jen (00:20:41)
 We’re all gonna die. The planet’s, the planet’s in peril.

Marnie (00:20:46)
 Yeah. And I think it is, again, it’s really so much about looking at your audience and understanding where they’re at. There will be a spectrum of how people will react to vulnerability or not.
 I don’t know, you’re building up a relationship. And it’s a one-on-one relationship with everybody, even if it’s in a group.
 I can’t explain it particularly well, but it’s the same as if you’re talking in front of a public audience.
 You’ve got people who will ask you really targeted, driven questions. And you will respond with targeted, driven responses. You know, they want facts, you give them the facts.
 And then there are people that will just say, you know, “How does it feel to be in Antarctica?” And you can open that up.

Jen (00:21:28)
 And I’ve seen you do that, Marnie. I kind of put you on the spot there, trying to describe something that you’re just inherently extremely talented and skilled at, that you can’t necessarily describe.

Marnie (00:21:37)
 Oh, thank you.

Jen (00:21:39)
 But yeah, reading that audience and knowing how to keep people feeling safe while making space for people to experience what they’re going to experience. You know, that’s what it’s all about.
 But it really makes me think about scale, Marnie. Because we don’t have a lot of time, but I just briefly want to touch on the Guinness World Record attempt because what you are talking about now is an absolutely transformative emotional experience for a relatively small number of people.
 And no doubt people who’ve had the opportunity to travel with you and learn from you and learn from the guests that you bring in. You know, I can imagine they’re changed forever.
 But there’s only one of you. And I don’t know how many other people are doing the sort of tourism that you are. But we can’t get to everybody who we might hope would reevaluate their relationship with the planet and their impact on it.
 So something like the Guinness World Record. You know, this is communication at a really large scale. This is, I can’t give you that same experience, but I can give you some exposure to something important like understanding light pollution and dark skies better, for thousands and thousands of people all at once to the extent that we now have a Guinness World Record.
 Talk to me just briefly about scale. What do we lose in terms of impact when we try and operate at big scales when we’re communicating information?

Marnie (00:22:53)
 Oh gosh, you know, I would like to think that we don’t lose anything.

Jen (00:22:58)
 Excellent.

Marnie (00:22:59)
 I think that, I don’t think it matters. I think we still do it the same way. We still do it with heart. We still do it with care. We still do it with compassion. And we try and give a little bit of everything to everybody on a bigger scale, I guess.
 So with the Guinness World Record Challenge. We ran an online platform, an educational platform that gave everybody an opportunity to learn a little bit about dark skies and the impacts of light pollution.
 And I think from the feedback that we got, which was very heartfelt from a lot of families saying, “You know, I’ve never been out in the dark sky with my child. And you know, I’ve now got a six-year-old that tells me, Mommy, turn the lights off on the porch so the possums are okay.”
 We could give everybody from the age of about 4 to 94, something to get their teeth into. And I think, you know, we might not have, we get 7,500 people an opportunity to be Guinness World Record holders.
 We actually had 15,500 people participate in the survey. And that was with, on the platform. And that was really very short planning. It came about with COVID. You know, I imagine what we could have done if we’d had six months to plan it, et cetera, but…

Michael (00:24:14)
 Yeah. Wow.

Marnie (00:24:15)
 It was probably our most success… It was probably one of the most successful light pollution raising awareness activities in the world, I would say, with all the groups that are doing it. We had 76 countries participate. Yeah.

Michael (00:24:29)
 Wow. So, that’s incredible. Wow, fantastic. I am noticing the time, however, and we are running out of time. So we’re going to switch gears a little bit, Marnie.
 We’re going to ask 5 questions now. Maybe we’ll plus or minus a few depending on how we feel. But we’re going to ask some questions now which are a little bit more creative, I guess.

Michael (00:25:05)
 The first one that I would like to ask you is that if you could pick an alternative job to what you’re doing today, what would it be?

Marnie (00:25:18)
 Hmm. My immediate answer is teacher, but it wouldn’t be necessarily in a school. Yeah, I’ve also thought about nursing. It’s just the sort of strangest thing, because I’d love, I just love caring for people. And I love being with people so…
 Yeah, but I think there’s such a critical role in teaching. I guess I am a teacher, really. I’m taking people to those environments. So yeah, probably teaching. Yeah.

Jen (00:25:47)
 That’s what I was going to say, Marnie. I think you’re already a teacher.
 Okay, next question. If you could pick a superpower. What superpower would you pick to have?

Marnie (00:25:57)
 Oh, I’d like to be able to look through everything. What’s, you know? What was it, Superman that could see it, see through everything through cupboards and everything?
 I’d love that. I’d love to be able to find things more easily.

Michael (00:26:10)
 What would you use your superpower for? Finding your keys or?

Marnie (00:26:14)
 Well, actually, if we’re going to have a… I would love to be able to… Yeah, so I’m going to change my superpower.
 I’d like to still be able to see things, but I’d love to see what drives people.

Jen (00:26:25)
 Ooh yeah, that’s good. That’s a really good one.

Marnie (00:26:30)
 Yeah, money, love? Fairy animals? I don’t know. Yeah.

Michael (00:26:38)
 That’s a great one. That’s a, that’s a really good one.
 OK Marnie, if you could go back in time and give yourself a message at the age of 21, what would you say to yourself?

Marnie (00:26:50)
 Hmm. Don’t worry, it all works out.

Jen (00:26:55)
 Love it. I think that’s, that’s the gold right there. It’s all going to be fine.

Marnie (00:27:01)
 Yeah, we don’t know how it’s going to work, but It all does. Hmm.

Michael (00:27:05)
 Yeah. So my friend has a good saying. It’s umm, “It’ll all be all right in the end. And if it’s not all right, it’s not the end”.

Marnie (00:27:12)
 Hmm, yeah.

Jen (00:27:13)
 Ooh, we are getting profound today, my friends.

Marnie (00:27:17)
 Well, yesterday I was actually telling a friend of mine who’s going through a hard time.
 Everything has a beginning, middle and end, but we don’t know where we are on that. Yeah, so…

Jen (00:27:28)
 Yeah, absolutely. OK. Marnie, next question.
 What have you learned in your career so far about leadership?

Marnie (00:27:38)
 Yeah, my immediate reaction to that is it comes in all shapes and sizes.
 So it might not be, you might not be prime minister and you might not be leading a big bank or anything, but I think everybody has the opportunity to be a leader every day.
 In every action that you take, you can step up and leave the world a better place, which is my… You know, to leave this world better, or to show an act of kindness. And I think that’s actually leadership.

Michael (00:28:12)
 Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, leadership can exist anywhere, I guess, where there’s people interacting. And yeah, it’s about kind of modeling good behavior.

Marnie (00:28:21)
 Yeah, I’m always a little bit shocked by people who walk past people in pain or in a difficult situation that don’t offer a hand.
 And I know that might… Again, that’s, that might not be your normal definition of leadership, but I think it is. I think it’s actually creating a better space for everybody. Yeah.

Michael (00:28:44)
 Great answer. So final question Marnie, what is your very top tip for communicating science effectively?

Marnie (00:28:53)
 Do it honestly. And honest to you, honest to the facts. And do it because you love it. Do it with joy. Yeah. Do it because it feels, you know, that there’s a message that you want to share.
 And I think if you’re always remembering that this is something that you [are] passionate about. And you, you know, everybody will come on board. Yeah.

Jen (00:29:15)
 Oh, Marnie, I’ve certainly seen that in action with you.
 The only reason that I am contributing in any way in the dark sky space is because of you and your passion.
 And it’s just been such a privilege for me to get to know you and see the way someone who clearly grew up in the world of science and made a clear decision not to go and study science, but yet you’ve come back to the world of science and contributed just in absolute spades with your passion and your kindness and your sensitivity to people and their needs.
 I just think you are making a huge impact in the world.

Marnie (00:29:50)
 Oh, thank you, Jen. Yeah, yeah.

Jen (00:29:53)
 And thank you for making time to talk with us today.

Marnie (00:29:55)
 Thank you for the invitation.

Jen (00:29:26)
 It was a really wonderful conversation.

Marnie (00:29:55)
 Yeah, lovely. Thank you so much for the opportunity and to all the scientists out there, thank you for what you do. And thank you for giving me a platform to, to bring you into the, the world of of tourism. Any, anytime. So, yeah.

Michael (00:30:13)
 Excellent. Thanks so much. Marnie.
 It’s been a pleasure chatting with you today.

Jen (00:30:35)
 Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Let’s Talk SciComm from the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I’m Associate Professor Jen Martin and my brilliant cohost is Doctor Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:30:49)
 And if you’ve enjoyed listening to this episode, we’d love you to share it with your friends and family. We’d love you to share your favourite episode online, and you can find us at Let’s Talk SciComm on X, formerly known as Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Jen (00:31:04)
 And this season, we are asking for your help to spread the word so that more people find out about our podcast. So if you enjoy listening, we would love you to tell a friend.
 But we’d also love you to think about taking a couple of minutes to write us a review. Whatever platform you listen on, there will be a place for you to leave a review and we are going to keep track and award our favourite reviewees some prizes.
 We’re thinking about some merch and we’d also love to reward our favourite review with a free science communication workshop that we will run for you in person or online, depending on whereabouts you are.

Michael (00:31:39)
 Ooh, prizes. And if… They sound great. And if you’d like to get in touch to suggest a guest or a future topic, we’d love to hear from you.
 Please email us at lets.talk.scicomm@gmail.com.
 And as always, a huge thank you to our production team, Stephanie Wong and Steven Tang.