Episode 81 – Interview with science journalist Dr Jackson Ryan

This week we had a fabulous conversation with multi-award winning science journalist Dr Jackson Ryan. Jackson is a former molecular biologist and current freelance science journalist with a focus on longform and narrative non-fiction science writing. He served as the Science Editor at CNET.com between 2018 and 2023 and was the 2022 winner of the Eureka Prize for Science Journalism. In 2024, he is co-editing the Best Australian Science Writing anthology — and you should buy it! His longform writing has appeared in The Guardian, The Saturday Paper, The Monthly and Nature.

You can follow Jackson and learn more about his work here:

Transcript

Jen (00:00:21)
Hello everybody. It is a wonderful day today because we are recording another episode of Let’s Talk SciComm.
I’m Jen Martin and as ever, I’m joined by my very good friend Michael Wheeler, who I’ve just discovered really wanted to be called Michael Jackson.
But he’s Michael Wheeler. Hello, Michael.

Michael (00:00:40)
Hey, Jen. Well, look maybe you know, we can, I can be Michael Jackson for this interview.

Jen (00:00:48)
Only if you can moon dance. I hope you can moon dance.

Michael (00:00:51)
Yeah, here we go.

Jackson (00:00:53)
Wow, that was…

Michael (00:00:55)
You can’t see my feet, but just trust me.

Jen (00:00:56)
This is quality audio right there. This is really quality.
So the reason that Jackson came up today is because we have the most excellent guest that you are about to meet.
We are speaking today with a multi-award winning science writer. And I feel like sometimes when you say multi-award winning, it kind of means two. But in this case, multi-award winning is a lot. Multi-award winning science writer and science journalist, Jackson Ryan.
So that’s where the Jackson came from. And we found out Michael’s long lost hope to be called Michael Jackson.
But Jack is very well known here in Australia. He’s known for his feature writing, particularly his long form journalism, which we’re going to ask about. Because people argue that long form journalism is you know, is a thing of the past.
Jack’s also president of the Science Journalists Association of Australia. He’s worked for the ABC as their science and technology reporter. He’s also been the science editor for CNET. He’s done lots of different interesting writing for different people and in different places.
He also has a PhD in pharmaceutical and medical science, which we will pick his brains about.
But Jackson, when I talk about awards, he’s a finalist this year for the first ever Walkley Science and Environment Award.
And among the many prizes that I mentioned before, the way that I came into contact with Jackson is because he’s already won the Eureka Prize for Science Journalism, which is a very prestigious award.
His writing was featured in the Best Australian Science Writing Anthology for many years. And then in 2024, he was the co-editor for that anthology.
And Michael, the thing you’re not going to know is that on top of all of that, he was a children’s host on a Disney show, Game Fest, for nearly three years, talking about video games. And I don’t, Michael, have we ever had a child star on the show before? I don’t know.

Michael (00:02:39)
Oh wow.

Michael (00:02:48)
I don’t think so. It’s absolutely a first and what a job.
That must have been a dream job as a child.

Jackson (00:02:54)
This is such a fantastic way to start a show for me. I’ve done many podcasts, but I haven’t had an introduction like that. And it makes me very reflective.
I really appreciate that, Jen. That’s a lovely introduction.
And yes, I was a child TV star. I wouldn’t say I was a child at the time. I mean, I was an adult. But I was doing children’s television for… around video games, which I’m sure we will get into it. But that was kind of how I got my start in this whole world anyway.

Jen (00:03:21)
You just look so young and sprightly, Jack, that when I did my sums and looked at the dates that you were on that Disney show, I figured you, you just, you must have been a child star.

Jackson (00:03:31)
Yeah, it’s great genes. So I’ll give that to my mum. Hat tip to mum for that one.

Jen (00:03:36)
But welcome, Jack. We’re so thrilled that you’ve made time to chat with us. It’s really excellent to see you.
And look, you’ve given me the perfect segue into where we want to start, because we do love beginning our conversations with our guests on Let’s Talk SciComm by getting a sense of how they got into science in the first place.
Because sometimes it’s a parent or a teacher or a place, or you know, someone being gifted a chemistry set for Christmas or something like that.
So was it video games for you that got you into science?

Jackson (00:04:04)
I honestly have to trace it back to sort of around year 10. So I went to a Catholic school. Michael, we were talking about your Catholic roots. I went to a Catholic school in Adelaide, Thomas More College.
And there’s a teacher there in year 10. I did year 10 biology. And the teacher there, his name was Greg Bulling, who just kind of like instilled this real sense of… And I think this happens a lot with people that get into science, this sense of like, Oh, you can explain the world with these methods, right? And I thought that was really cool.
And he sort of like, as part of the curriculum, Mr. Bulling would take us out to like the beach and stuff. And he’d be like, just go find things and then explain them. Like, tell me what this thing is. Write about this thing.
We did the like you know, dissecting frogs and stuff too. And that was kind of my first taste of being like, Well, maybe I could do this. Maybe this is something that I want to actually study.
And I was like, Maybe I can be a doctor. Maybe I can really get interested in I guess, like human bodies and pathology. I was also watching House, M.D. a lot. House was actually a big inspiration.
So really like honestly, the science inspiration I guess comes like later in life. I was a big video game kid, loved playing video games as a kid.
But I think in the middle of high school was when I was like, Oh, this is actually a fun way to look at the world. Maybe I should invest time in this discipline. And it kind of just continued on from year 10.
So it’s a big… Honestly, big thanks to Mr. Bulling, which I haven’t spoken to that man for many many years. I don’t know if he listens to Let’s Talk SciComm. I hope he does. But genuinely he is part of it.
And also actually, I think about this quote from my year 8 teacher a lot. My year 8 maths teacher, her name was Helen Nicolau. She would always be like, you know, she’d be like “We’re not striving for mediocrity in this”. She was doing maths, and she and you know, as an year eight, you’re like, Oh, okay, I’ll do my best sort of thing.
But I always think about that quote now where I’m like, Oh yeah, I’m not… Like, I really want to make sure that the things I do are excellent always sort of.
And so like trying to translate that into becoming a scientist, which is what I did after I finished high school.
It’s like, how do I become excellent in science? And you’ll find out, I think through this interview, I didn’t become very excellent in science. But I did become, I feel, excellent in writing and journalism. So yeah, maybe we can get to that too.

Michael (00:06:19)
Yeah, well, you’ve gone on to do many excellent things, Jack.
And it’s great that you kept that interest in kind of you know, human health biology. Because you went on to do a PhD about vitamin D and the skeletal system.
How did you get interested in that? And what do we all need to know about vitamin D and the skeleton?

Jackson (00:06:37)
That’s a good question. So yeah, I think. So by the time I finished my high schooling, I went into a Bachelor of Laboratory Medicine, which, that is definitely inspired by House, M.D.
Like I thought I was going into a job that would be like oh, the doctor would come to me and be like, “What’s wrong with this patient? Like run some bloods and tell me what’s going on.”
Well, you do run the bloods as a medical scientist or a laboratory technician, but you just put them in a machine and then it spits out a result. And then that goes to the doctor. You don’t say anything to them.
I wanted something a bit more stimulating. And so I went into an Honours year studying melanoma and immunotherapy.
That Honours year was mostly cell culture work. I found that I wasn’t really very good at cell culture and I wasn’t very good at flow cytometry either. So I needed to do both of those things quite a lot in the Honours year.
And by the time I finished my Honours year, I had decided I’m going to do a doctorate, but I was going to switch into a completely different lab, which is kind of rare.
But I found that the, I sort of did like a speed dating I guess, of potential PhDs that I could do and things I was interested in. And I was interested in endocrinology and bone health, but mostly because of the pedigree of the scientists that I spoke to and the projects they were doing, which was a lot more animal model work.
And so I figured I’d jump into that, had a really good sort of first meeting with them. And that set me down the path.
I was not necessarily interested in vitamin D, but I was interested in the systems I guess, and trying to untangle how specific hormones work in different parts of the body.
And it just so happened that I ended up as a bone scientist, which is an interesting like discipline because people think of the bone as like super boring, like not a lot’s going on. But you know, there are multiple bone cells that are doing stuff all the time. And they’re affected by vitamin D.
And so to get to your question Michael finally, which is this is what I do as a journalist, just talk and talk and talk. I didn’t learn a lot. I actually had a very like negative PhD result, I guess.
But my academic career, I did publish a couple of papers. I’m proud of the work that I did. But I just wasn’t very like, I was not good at it.
I was, I hated going into the animal house and like killing 50 mice, sacrificing 50 mice to harvest their bones and study them. It just didn’t vibe with the kind of person I am. I feel like I’d be very down on those days. I’m a very upbeat type of guy.
And then you’d go into the sort of kill room and you would… Yeah, it would just be this really weird, depressing atmosphere, which you know, a lot of people use mice to study in basic science.
But it’s just a weird thing that I had to confront. And so, yeah my PhD, I guess I would say is a negative PhD.
But I’m really really stoked that I was able to publish out of it and publish those negative results to contribute overall to the kind of conversation around vitamin D supplementation for bones.
I can’t give our audience any help about how much vitamin D supplements you can take. I’m sorry.

Jen (00:09:37)
But negative results are actually really important. And although I, you know, I’m sure it was quite difficult, quite a difficult PhD; Both from the point of view of the ethics for you of working with the animals and also not having these amazing results that you might’ve dreamed of.
But your story that you’ve just told makes a very clear point, and that is how impactful individual people can be. People who give us opportunities, people who become our advocates or our cheerleaders or our supporters.
And so I guess I really want to hear the next stage of your journey then. Was it a particular person who fostered your love for writing about science? ‘Cause writing a thesis and writing papers is a very different world to what you do now.
So what was that journey to discovering that science writing was a thing, developing your skills? You’re a very skilled science writer. I mean, tell us, what’s the next stage post PhD?

Jackson (00:10:27)
Yeah, yeah. I think… So you know, it’d be nice if we had a video feed for this because there is this book that I wrote when I was in year 6. And you know, this is a book I wrote in year 6. It’s called “The War for Insectopia”. I don’t actually have it here. It’s in a box. I usually hold it.
But basically I illustrated and wrote this story about insects fighting for their, the safety of their planet. Now, I had absolutely ripped this off from “Starship Troopers” and flipped it so that the bugs are the good guys.
And I think, like I said, I’ve always had this real passion to just write stories. I really have always been engaged in I guess, the literary world. Growing up, I read a lot of books. I just enjoy that.
But by the time I finished my PhD, I was very much in this like realm of, I was doing the Disney Channel stuff where I was hosting a kid’s TV show about video games.
I was really interested in how maps are produced in video games, kind of like trying to link scientific disciplines with game development concepts.
Sounds wanky as, I know. But it was kind of like just a blog I did on the side. And then I kind of would also do these pieces that were kind of a bit sillier.
And one of these pieces was about the fact that I got fired from EB Games for dancing in the store. So when I was working at EB Games, which is actually the second year of my university degree, I was filming on a Sony Ericsson, very terrible phone.
And we can put a link to this in the description actually, ’cause it’s still on YouTube. So I filmed myself dancing around the store and dancing with the customer, because at that EB Games in South Australia, we just used to mess around a lot.
And I put it up, and this was like before TikTok and all that stuff, which today like it would have millions of views, I’m sure. Or something. You know, people would love this. Like oh, look at this guy doing stupid stuff in the real world, sort of thing.
But I put it up, it had about 10,000 views. And about eight months after it was uploaded, the area manager called me to be like, “Look, we’ve seen your video, and we have to fire you.”

Michael (00:12:35)
Oh no.

Jackson (00:12:36)
And I was like, “Hang on, hang on, hang on. What do you mean? Like what have I? What can you fire me for here?” Because it wasn’t actually clear.
He was like, “Well, you’ve broken about 11 rules that we have in our corporate thing.”
I’m like, “All right, well, tell me the 11 rules”, so I you know, “so I know”.
And he got to one, he said one rule. He’s like, “Well, you’ve messed with the company property”. Like I jumped over some boxes.
So he’s like, “Oh, you damaged property in the store.”
They were empty boxes, but that’s irrelevant. And I said, “Okay, cool.”
He goes, “And number two. Well, actually, look, I don’t need to go through all 11 of these. There’s enough there damaging the property.”
So I left that job. The reason I bring that up…

Michael (00:13:11)
It was your dance moves weren’t up to scratch.

Jackson (00:13:11)
They were terrible dance moves, Michael. Terrible, terrible dance moves.
And I remember the customer. Because this is like the early days of camera phones, it’s so grainy, but you can still see the disgust on the customer’s face. Like he’s kind of amused, but he’s kind of like, What is going on here?
And I only bring that story up because I wrote about that experience. The experience of being like in EB games as someone who played video games growing up and really loved video games.
It was like, this is the dream job. But when you actually work at an EB games, you realize it’s not actually all that interesting. It’s not a dream job. It sucks. It’s like, it’s a retail job. It’s dealing with people.
It’s not about playing games or being excited about video games. It’s just about serving people. And I have so much respect for retail workers. I have been one. I’ve worked at JB as well. But it’s like, it’s not the job you think it will be.
And when I wrote that, a gentleman named Mark Serrels read it and he was like, “Look, this is on your blog. We can’t pay you anything, but we’ll put it on Kotaku,” which is sort of a major Australian video games outlet.
And so they published it. It became the second most read story on that website.

Michael (00:14:18)
Wow.

Jackson (00:14:18)
A job at this publisher came around with Kotaku. It was a reviews editor.
I said to Mark, “Hey man, like I think I’d be pretty cool at this job. Like I’d be able to do this.”
Complete switch from like, from doing academia, right? So like I’m just going to be a journalist now. More an editor is. it was even the title.
And Mark was like, “Look, you won’t like this job. It’s super boring. Like you go look at the best headphones and you write the top 10 best headphones sort of thing.”
And I was like, “No, I want this job. I can do this job.”

Jen (00:14:32)
And I like headphones.

Jackson (00:14:51)
And I like headphones. I apply. I then made a video of myself playing guitar really badly. I can’t play guitar. So kind of just strumming. Like ding, ba-ding, bonk.
And I was like, “Oh, sorry, I’m not gonna play guitar. I’m actually making this video to apply for the job of reviews and roundup editor.” And that was a silly video where I was like, “I can review anything.” And you know, I’d be holding up an exercise ball and I’d be like, “I like keyboards.” Or whatever. You know, it’s just a stupid video.
Sent it to him. And he’s like, “Just come in for an interview. Let’s have a talk about it.” And I interviewed that day. And then the next day he was like, “We want you to come on board.”
So Mark, from that moment on to literally to today. You know, I talked to Mark this morning. He has been the biggest advocate for me as a writer and a journalist.
And so it is about once again, finding someone that backs you and supports the kind of work that you think you can do.
And without Mark’s support, I would have none of the accolades that you mentioned at the top. I would have none of the, even ambition and drive to do this, I think.
Because it’s a very tough world, journalism, to establish yourself. And without someone like Mark,yeah, I would have, I would have definitely I think, fallen away from it a long time ago.
So I’m very, very thankful to him. And I hate having to do that, ’cause he’s the kind of, he’s, I love him to death, but I always give him plaudits.
And he’s like, “Oh, here we go again. Talking about me as your mentor.”

Michael (00:16:21)
Oh, it’s great to have a mentor, you know, especially if you’re transitioning from one completely different professional world to another.
And transitioning to becoming a writer then, you’re writing, but in a different way, right? Because you would have done that for your PhD. And now this is a completely different type of writing.
And I know you say that you endeavor to write stories that no one else is writing. And I’m just curious to ask you about that. How do you find those stories? How do you decide what to write about as a science journalist?

Jackson (00:16:51)
Incredible question, because it’s a great segue that you didn’t even plan, Michael.
That is actually Mark Serrels saying that I stole, I plagiarized. It’s a Serrels-ism. Mark Serrels always used to say to me, “You know, just write the stories that only you can write.”
And I think as part of, “Write the stories that only you can write”, it’s the stories that sort of no one else is telling are the best stories you’ve ever read.
And it also becomes about centering human beings, right? Like it becomes about centering the person rather than like the processes. And I think we all connect with that. I hope that makes sense.

Jen (00:17:27)
Yeah, it does make sense. And it really rings true for me for one of the specific pieces of writing that you’ve done.
So you won the Eureka Prize for actually a series that you wrote, which was “Journey to the Ice Kingdom,” which yes, is about Antarctica and yes, is about climate science, but in fact is about people, is about scientists, which is what you’ve just been talking about.
And I really enjoyed reading the series. So I’m also someone who is incredibly fortunate and have had the privilege of being to Antarctica.
And you know, it’s this really emotional place, right? It’s absolutely awe-inspiring. You feel like you’re in a documentary.
But it’s very emotional because of the skill and the passion of the people who work there and the fact that really they’re documenting the demise of the planet, really. And I think it’s very hard to put into words.
So I’d love to hear your take on writing that series. And how do you find the words to tell those beautiful human-centered stories in a you know, in the context of a place like Antarctica?

Jackson (00:18:27)
Yeah, another great question.
I mean, for me, there’s a specific way that I go about writing a long-form piece or a long-form feature in that I try and plot out what I think the major story beats on kind of like a rollercoaster ride, right?
Where it’s a very slow, very slow like it’s the start of a rollercoaster where you’re basically slowly amping up until you get to that peak. And then after the peak, where all the action happens, you go down the other side and that’s kind of the denouement of your piece about I guess, the future and what it looks like.
But those particular stories Jen are I guess, really the strength of them comes from being able to sit with those scientists for many many weeks, to be able to talk to those human beings over time.
And unfortunately, the world that we live in doesn’t provide a lot of those opportunities for journalists these days because it’s a much more fast-paced world.
We have to generate stories for clicks in some ways. We also have to generate stories that are reactive to what’s happening in the world.
For me, I was very fortunate to be able to do sort of a slower form of journalism which is, for instance, one of these stories is about krill.
Krill are a keystone species of the Southern Ocean. But they’re also kind of boring. Like in some ways, like people don’t go, “Oh, my favorite animal is krill.”
I mean, most people don’t. But Rob King, who works with krill and has worked with krill his whole life bloody loves krill. And that’s an interesting human angle to attach to a science story.
So they’re a keystone species. I want to make sure that people understand that when they come out of the piece and that losing those species because of climate change would be like, devastating to that ecosystem. But I also want people to be able to connect to the person that’s actually studying them.

Michael (00:20:11)
And you were saying like you were able to get that insight from spending time with these scientists and really interacting with them and learning you know, what drives them, what motivates them. And that those opportunities for journalists in general are maybe drying up a little bit. And you kind of you know, touched on how it’s a bit of a shifting landscape.
What would you say to you know, our listeners out there, if someone is interested in maybe exploring journalism, science journalism as a career. What does it take now to be a successful writer
and a successful science journalist, given the changes?

Jackson (00:20:50)
Yeah, another good question. I think the idea for me is like, there’s two things I always offer up as advice.
The first is that you should read widely science journalists that you enjoy reading, right? Even ones you don’t. But mostly like if you find a science journalist, you’re like, I love their work. You should just try and read it all the time. It’s sort of, just by reading it, you’ll start unpacking why you like it, even subconsciously. So I think that’s one place to start.
It’s very difficult like to I guess, become a science journalist in the sense that there are not a lot of places that have full-time staff.
So I think in Australia, there’s less than a dozen really full-time staff members across our major publications, actually listed in science and environment.
That’s including environment now. You know, with mostly climate reporters, which is very very helpful. There’s probably, maybe we can push that to say 25, if we include like sort of special reporting teams and stuff.
But because there’s not a lot of jobs, really this is a freelance gig now. And most of the work that I at least see coming through the Science Journalists Association, most people are farming out their work across to the US, the UK, etc, etc, because that’s where the opportunities lie.
So if you’re wanting to get involved like at the start, I’d say read widely. And then do it for yourself. Like on the side, if you’re a scientist and you’re like, Oh, maybe I wanna try this. I don’t think…
It’s impossible to jump in and just be like Well, I’m gonna get a job. I was a scientist, so I can do this, right? I’d love to say that that’s the case.
But there are places like one, of course, the Science Journalists Association, you can sign up as an associate member or even a student member if you’re a student for 40 bucks a year.
Basically that gives you access to all our resources and our resources are not just physical resources you can read and watch. But us, like the human beings. We are a community that wants to be able to support and make a sustainable industry.
It’s very hard, Michael. Like I also work in video games journalism and that’s an even more dire situation ’cause no one really reads about video games in a journalistic sense, but it’s a very important part of the culture and the industry to be able to report on those issues I think, in the same way that we should do with science.
So the only reason I bring that up is just to say that it’s tough. It’s really tough to be a journalist. It’s tough to be a journalist in Australia. Those jobs are drying up, you’re absolutely right,
But there, I guess, are services and places to go to get the skills. And if you can do it on the side to begin and then come to places like the SJAA, listen to podcasts like this, I think you start gathering the skills to be able to go, All right, maybe I can try to pitch to a publication now. Okay, where should I pitch? Well, I’ll pitch to… I know that the SJAA has these resources. Let’s go have a look at where we should pitch, you know.

Jen (00:23:30)
And we will provide links in our…

Jackson (00:23:33)
Of course, thousands.

Jen (00:23:34)
Show notes. So that people can… ’cause you know, I do imagine there are people listening who it’s all well and good to hear these jobs are very difficult to come by.
But some people, yourself included, have made an absolute success of this type of work. And we need these stories to be told right? So yes, it’s difficult…

Jackson (00:23:49)
I do not want to discourage people from getting in, absolutely not. I actually you know, of course, encourage people to do as much as they can.
I think in saying that, you have to be honest with them and be like, “There’s not a lot of…” Just…

Jen (00:23:59)
Of course.

Jackson (00:24:00)
I want as many… Everyone should do science journalism, all the other journalism can go away. I don’t, that would be the best. But that’s just not how it works.
And I think actually part of you know, I’ve become a freelancer recently. I’ve been doing a lot more freelance work.
Part of that is like picking a lot, like working on science journalism is about working on stories that are kind of adjacent to science to make sure that I can keep money coming in and doing the science journalism that I like to do the long form, the feature work, as much on the side as I can.

Jen (00:24:30)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Jack, you keep talking about stories and I’m looking at the clock and saying that we’re nearly out of time, but I have to ask you about a story.
I kind of hadn’t decided whether I would bite it on this or not.

Jackson (00:24:40)
I know.
Do it.

Jen (00:24:41)
But in your LinkedIn profile, you say Harrison Ford hates you and we should ask you about it.
So very briefly I’m asking you, why does Harrison Ford hate you?

Jackson (00:24:48)
Of course. Okay, we could, we’ve almost come full circle in some ways.
As a Disney host, my very first gig was to do the red carpet of Star Wars Episode Seven, “The Force Awakens”, which was the return to Star Wars after many years.
Now, Harrison Ford was in town. He was on the red carpet. I was told you get two minutes with Harrison or two questions.
And so I asked a question and it was a pretty low, softball question. Like, what do you think the legacy of Star Wars is like? And this is for a kid’s TV show, don’t forget.
And as I went to ask the second question, I asked something about him, you know, his own personal legacy, his connection to the series.
And he blanked me, looked at me dead in the eye, and then just turned to the next person and just kept walking. I didn’t even get my second question.
So it’s kind of a, I’ve kind of dramatized it for LinkedIn that he hates me. Obviously, I don’t think he would even know who I am. But I do like to tell that story in a sort of dramatic fashion.

Michael (00:25:48)
Well, Harrison Ford, if you’re listening…

Jen (00:25:49)
That’s what makes you good, right?
But making stories more dramatic, that’s clearly an important part of your job, Jack.
So thank you. Thank you for sharing.

Jackson (00:25:59)
Yeah, I think… I think there’s an element, especially in in culture writing, we’d call that, where we dramatise our interactions a little bit.

Michael (00:26:09)
Well, fascinating stuff Jack. And we are running out of time, but we would like to have a dramatic finish to the podcast.
And the way we achieve that is by shifting gears a little bit now and asking you some rapid questions. So quick questions, quick answers.

Jackson (00:26:25)
I’ll try.

Michael (00:26:35)
Quick/ dramatic answers.
The first one I’d like to ask you is if you could pick an alternative job to what you’re doing today, what would it be?

Jackson (00:26:47)
Yeah, I think I’d be in science still.
I’d honestly love to be one of House M.D.’s like you know, a pathologist basically, picking and choosing.
Oh, I think I’ve got this disease. Let’s experiment. Is that dramatic enough?

Jen (00:27:01)
Well, we look forward to seeing the drama of you diagnosing diseases, that sounds awesome.
Next question, if you could choose to have one superpower, what would it be?

Jackson (00:27:11)
Oh man, you always get this question and there’s like, there’s so many cool superpowers.
Honestly, if I could just not procrastinate, I think that would be a superpower in itself as a journalist.
But also of course like flight, absolutely flight.
I think flight is the one where it’s like, I could cut down on so much crap if I could just go from here. We could be in the same room if I could fly, right?
Anyway, that would be my super superpower. But procrastination definitely.

Michael (00:27:38)
There’s a realistic one.
And I like the way you say you always get asked that question about what your superpower is.
Maybe we have to mix it up a little bit, Jen.
Or maybe you just, you’ve got a, you mix in unique circles Jack.

Jackson (00:27:51)
Well, it’s this kid’s TV mate. So once K-Zone comes in and says, “What’s your superpower?”
You’re talking about Marvel films? You’re going to get that question.

Michael (00:27:59)
All righty, if you could go back in time Jack and give yourself a message at the age of 21, what would you say to yourself?

Jackson (00:28:07)
Stop going out every weekend, for Christ’s sake.
Nah, I would probably say like You are a persistent person and sometimes you’ve got to slow down.
I think to get really introspective and dramatic a little bit, I am the kind of person that focuses, as much as I just talked about procrastinating, I have definitely put work ahead of other things in my life in the past.
And I think I’d love to tell a younger version of me that you can do what you do and be successful by managing that drive and ambition without putting people off.
I know that I got a little bit like depressing here. But genuinely, I think the best thing to tell my younger self is like, Just slow down a bit, mate. Everything will come. Don’t force it sort of thing.

Jen (00:28:53)
That’s excellent advice for all of us, regardless of age.

Jackson (00:28:56)
And don’t go out every weekend at 21, you don’t need to. Every second weekend’s fine.
[You’d] save a bit more cash.

Michael (00:28:58)
Yeah, yeah, true.

Jen (00:29:03)
Jack, in a couple of words. You, I’ll let you have five.
What do you think makes a good science journalist?

Jackson (00:29:07)
Oh God.

Jen (00:29:13)
Persistent clearly.

Jackson (00:29:14)
Persistence. Empathy. And well read.

Michael (00:29:20)
Hmm, very good. You took…

Jen (00:29:22)
And being concise, you didn’t even use all five.

Michael (00:29:24)
You took up the challenge of…
Yeah.

Jackson (00:29:26)
…I even used “and” so really a four. OK.

Michael (00:29:27)
And and, yeah, yeah.
OK, you can have more than five words, Jack. I’m feeling generous today.

Jackson (00:29:35)
Beautiful.

Jackson (00:29:35)
Last question. What would be your very top tip for effectively communicating about science?

Jackson (00:29:40)
Oh, that’s great. My personal experience is that you should try and centre the human being and the human experience in your, in your work. So again, we talked about Antarctica a lot.
I think the best way to get cut through, to make sure that your story sticks, to make sure that your research sticks is to somehow centre the humanity involved in, in the project.
I think it, maybe is a little bit harder if you’re a scientist and you’re going to a conference and you’re talking about cell culture.
But I do think that even in those situations, I would probably talk a little bit about the journey. What I’d actually experienced while doing those experiments, just to see if that keeps it in people’s mind and later they might come up to me and be like Oh, that’s the same experience I had when I was doing my work.
So I think if you can center experience, human experience. That speaks to people much more than these esoteric ideas of what we do in the lab, I guess.

Michael (00:30:35)
Yeah, yeah. There’s always a human angle I guess behind the research. You know, whether that’s your own experience or you know, maybe you can give yourselves human names like Michael Jackson or something and come out from that angle.

Jackson (00:30:47)
Yeah, and if you do a moonwalk.
You’re… you’re on, you’re on track, I think.

Jen (00:30:55)
Well Jack, it’s been a very rewarding human experience chatting with you today.
Massive congratulations on having forged a career in a you know, tricky space and for doing it so successfully.
And we’re really grateful you took time out of your day to chat with us.
It’s really excellent to learn a bit more about your craft and we can’t wait to read whatever you write next.

Jackson (00:31:16)
Awesome. I really really appreciate it. It’s great that you guys do this.
And you know, on the idea of mentors and people that support you, I genuinely encourage anyone who wants to get involved in science journalism to reach out and say hello.
I’m more than happy to give tips, advice, ways in, open doors. I think strengthening the Australian science journalism community strengthens, raises all boats, right? That’s the expression.
So yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Michael (00:31:44)
That’s excellent. Really appreciate that, Jack.
And it’s been a pleasure chatting with you today.

Jackson (00:31:48)
Awesome. Thank you.

Jen (00:32:09)
Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Let’s Talk SciComm from the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I’m Associate Professor Jen Martin and my brilliant cohost is Dr Michael Wheeler.

Michael (00:32:23)
And if you’ve enjoyed listening to this episode, we’d love you to share it with your friends and family. We’d love you to share your favourite episode online. And you can find us at LetsTalkSciComm on X, formerly known as Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Jen (00:32:38)
And this season, we are asking for your help to spread the word so that more people find out about our podcast.
So if you enjoy listening, we would love you to tell a friend, but we’d also love you to think about taking a couple of minutes to write us a review.
Whatever platform you listen on, there will be a place for you to leave a review. And we’re going to keep track and award our favourite reviewees some prizes.
We’re thinking about some merch. And we’d also love to reward our favourite review with a free science communication workshop that we will run for you in person or online, depending on whereabouts you are.

Michael (00:33:13)
Ooh, prizes. And if… They sound great. And if you’d like to get in touch to suggest a guest or a future topic, we’d love to hear from you. Please email us at lets.talk.scicomm@gmail.com. And as always, a huge thank you to our production team Stephanie Wong and Steven Tang.