Episode 68 – Interview with Jessie Panazzolo, the lonely conservationist

What a wonderful conversation we had with Jessie Panazzolo this week! Jessie is the founder of Lonely Conservationists, a global online community working to help conservationists thrive by providing a platform to be heard, a strong community foundation and educational resources about caring for conservationists. Lonely Conservationists has become a pioneering platform in creating a space for environmentalists across the globe by giving them a safe space to share and normalise their lived experiences in the field.

You can follow Jessie and learn more about her work here:

Transcript

Jen (00:00:20)
Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk SciComm, a podcast by the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I’m Associate Professor Jen Martin and my wonderful co-host is Dr Michael Wheeler and we believe that science isn’t finished until it’s communicated.

Jen (00:00:45)
Hello everyone, I’m Jen and I’m so thrilled to welcome you to another episode of Let’s Talk SciComm. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, I am here with my very good friend Michael. Hello, Michael.

Michael (00:01:01)
Hey Jen, I’m good today.
Very excited for today’s episode.

Jen (00:01:06)
Yeah, well, I’m pretty excited to introduce you to Jessie. We have Jessie Panazzolo with us, who I met for the first time quite recently when we had the opportunity to be part of a conversation together for National Threatened Species Day. The conversation was hosted by the Wilderness Society.
And you know, I already knew of Jessie before then. I’d heard of her long before, I’ll tell you more in a second. But Jessie, as soon as we had that chat I’m like, I need to email you straight away and ask you to come on our podcast and happily you said yes. So welcome.

Jessie (00:01:35)
Of course, it’s a delight to be asked to speak on your lovely podcast.
So thank you, both of you for having me.

Jen (00:01:44)
Well, the pleasure is all ours. So Michael, given that you’re not in the world of conservation biology, I’m guessing you wouldn’t have heard of Jessie.
But I had a while ago. Or at least Jessie, the incredible community that you’ve created, which is the Lonely Conservationist. And I kind of think it’s awesome that even though you were the original lonely conservationist and you founded this incredible community, it’s kind of cool that I didn’t necessarily know your name. It sort of shows the success of what you’ve done I think.
And really it’s because of your vision and your hard work. I’m hoping you’re definitely not as lonely these days as you were when you started, but…

So I guess I’ll introduce you a bit, Jessie, and then we’re going to get stuck into asking you a heap of stuff.
So Lonely Conservationist is first and foremost a community, but I know it’s also an education program. There’s a blog, a podcast, it’s a source of mental health resources.
You know, it’s this whole incredible community. I really like the missions, and I’m actually just going to read them Jessie, because I think this will set the scene for the kind of breadth and depth of your vision, I guess.
So Lonely Conservationist is about ensuring that you are building a long-term community on a foundation of empathy, education, and empowerment, three most excellent E words.
And then part two is about giving a voice to passionate conservationists who are working really bloody hard out there to try and enact positive change for the planet.
Then part three is about listening to those voices, listening to the voices of the conservationists in the community to help what they’re doing to have visibility and purpose and value.
And then the last one is definitely one which we will speak with you more about. And this is the idea of helping conversa… conservationists sorry, who I’m sure are also conversationists, to overcome imposter syndrome and making sure that people feel valued and they know they’re, they belong in a community that’s safe and that they know they’re valued for the work that they’re doing.
So I guess I just want to say Jessie, you know, hats off to you, because those things all really speak to me – what an important mission to be, to be on.

Jessie (00:03:56)
And it’s interesting… Thank you, firstly. But it’s interesting that you said that you heard about the community without necessarily knowing who created it. And that was pretty much on purpose, because I didn’t… A lot of what you see in science communication is like an influencer or David Attenborough, a figurehead, Steve Erwin and Jane Goodall. And they’re the ones giving all the messages and they become this icon in their own right.
But a lot of what I wanted to do was uplift and empower the voices of my community and have that respect and value come across all the conservationists.
And I feel like, I know we’ll touch on this later with imposter syndrome, but a lot of people doubt that they’re even a conservationist. And I really want my community to make you feel like whatever you’re doing in conservation, whether it’s using canvas bags or like looking at your diet or how you purchase things or how you speak to your family or just even using two sides of the paper when you print something.
I want all of those individual small actions to be recognised, ’cause ultimately all those small things combined is what helps to create a really positive impact for our planet.
So it makes me really happy to know that this is a standalone community and it’s not necessarily me that’s the face of the figurehead, because that was very intentional on my part.

Jen (00:05:11)
Yeah, well, I think you’ve absolutely achieved that. And I have to say, I do stand corrected because you know, when I use the word conservationist a couple of minutes ago, I was using it in its narrowest sense.
Because Michael, of course, you’re a conservationist in the sense that you do all sorts of things that is trying to minimise your impact on the planet. And I would imagine that probably every single person listening to this, regardless of what field of STEM you might be involved with, you are doing some of those things that you just said, Jessie.

Michael (00:05:38)
Hmm, yeah, it’s really interesting. I’ve never really thought being you know, part of a, a community of conservationists. But I guess it’s open to to anyone. Is that right, Jesse?

Jessie (00:05:49)
Yeah, it’s open to anyone, because I feel like there’s been a long history of the conservation and environmental industry that seems very kind of elitist and like it’s only open to certain people.
A lot of the industry expects you to volunteer for a long time before you get paid to work, which cuts out a lot of socio-economic demographics of people. People who have to raise families and provide, they can’t necessarily work for free for a decade before they start getting paid minimum wage for a job.
And there’s also a lot of I guess, elitism on social media, where it’s like Yes, you’ve committed to reducing 90% of your plastic, but why aren’t you vegan? Or like, Why aren’t you taking the extra step?
 And it feels like the people who are doing the right thing are always the ones expected to do more instead of people that aren’t doing anything in the right direction, and encouraging them to take their first step.
So I really want to make conservation as accessible as possible because some people can’t even afford to have a job in the industry. I want conservation to be a really inclusive term to prevent people from feeling that imposter syndrome, like they’re not good enough and not welcome to partake in the industry or to be part of the community.

Jen (00:06:55)
Hear, hear. I feel like I already want to give you a standing ovation just for that, ’cause
I just, I just so believe everything you’ve said. And Jessie, in your case, I’m so interested to hear about what got you to this point.
Like often, often when we meet guests on our podcast, we like to ask them to tell us a bit about you know, when they were kids, what got them into science?
Was it an amazing teacher or an experience of camping? Or you know, in your case, were you into science and nature and the planet as a child?
Were you into other things? Was there something that can kind of pinpoint in your background that led you to have this incredible passion?

Jessie (00:07:32)
Yeah, so it actually started when I was toilet training, as all good stories do. My mum went to a wedding in Canada and I was too young and I was toilet training. She didn’t feel comfortable taking me at that stage of my life.
When she returned from Canada, she brought me back this stuffed toy gorilla. She must have got it from the zoo or something, ’cause that’s a weird thing to bring back from Canada.
But as soon as I saw this gorilla, I had like that Tarzan moment where I was like, Oh, those eyes are like my eyes and the nose is like mine and the mouth and the hands and we’re really similar.
And I was a very curious kid. And that was so incessant to the point where when I was five years old, my mum was having coffee with her friend and I came up to her and I asked her, “Mum, how can I save the orangutans?” Because I’d learnt all about the deforestation and oil palm plantations, the bushmeat trade, that kind of stuff.
So from that point on, I kind of had this realisation. When mum couldn’t answer that question, I realised that adults weren’t expected to clean up all the messes that they made, like I was as a toddler.
And it really made me feel like I wanted to grow up and be the adult that I couldn’t see in the world. I was so frustrated that adults had all this power and they seemed to be able to make all these decisions and do all these things.
But I saw this really obvious problem and nobody was doing anything about it. So I had blinkers on at that point and everything I did in my life was trying to work out the answer to that question “How do I save the orangutans?”
And so I went to an agricultural school. I did three years in a biodiversity and conservation degree. And at every big holidays at the end of the year, I’d go overseas and try and get grassroots experience in conservation programs.
Then I had my first kind of job. Like I paid to work, but I had all the responsibility and work of a job as an assistant research officer overseas in Madagascar, working on the gateway drug to primates, lemurs.
I feel like they were the stepping stone for me to get to the great apes. Then I ended up doing my honours degree after that in newly restored rainforest that used to be oil palm plantations. So basically this organisation would buy oil palm plantations from farmers and pay them and employ them to restore the land back into forest.
And so my research was looking at this matrix of differently… of forest grown at different ages. So you might have some two year old forest and 10 year old forest and five year old forest. And I would look to see if there were clues, orangutan nests and elephant poo to see if elephants and orangutans were living in these forests or how they were using these brand new forests.
So I feel like I had a very, a clear cut way that my life was going to go ever since getting this stuffed toy gorilla.
But I feel like the reason I created Lonely Conservationist is because I had to start my life again when I realised I couldn’t be a part of sustainable conservation in this land.
Like sustainable conservation comes from knowledge sharing and skill sharing and behavioural change across generations and having that embedded in the culture.
And as me, a white Australian, not an Indonesian, I couldn’t be a part of that long term change. So I feel like I had to just give up all of my dreams at 24, come home and start my life again in the conservation industry and then just try and reinvent myself. And that was a huge challenge.

Jen (00:10:50)
Well, I know it’s clearly resonated with huge numbers of people all around the world because I mean, you’ve just got this incredible thriving community now. I really encourage everyone to go to the website. There’s a lot, a lot there to have a look at.
And Jessie, when I was looking at the website, it struck me that you’ve identified three key themes for the community. And those are community, first and foremost, communication and mental health.
And obviously we’ve chatted a little bit about community and I definitely want to come back to mental health. But given what this podcast is about, I’m really interested to hear more about communication both I guess kind of in the life of a conservationist, the role that communication plays.
But also for you in the process of building this community. Like how do you feel about communication as absolutely, it’s clearly one of your key skills that you’ve developed?

Jessie (00:11:43)
Thank you. Communication for me has been really important because it basically saved my career from the age of when I was toilet training. That’s when I started my conservation career.
You’d think like if I wasn’t at a proper established, like being able to pay my bills, adult job kind of way of life, then who else was able to hack it? Because I’d been trying for so long.
So when I posted my first blog on the Lonely Conservationist and I started the website, I thought I was giving up on my career. Because I came from Adelaide and in my degree, there would be like 200 graduates every single year. And there would be like three or four jobs that people are just waiting for people to retire in because there was just not the opportunities for people to be in the industry for the amount of people that they were graduating.
So you really felt this element of you had to be perfect and you had to suppress everything that you thought was problematic because you had to show up and you had to say yes to everything to be able to make it in the industry.
So for me to write a blog complaining about how frustrated I was with the industry, for me that was residing with the fact that I was going to give up on my career forever. This was it. I’m a trophy wife now.
So communication literally saved my career because in telling my story and having everybody else agree and be like, “Wow, I feel this too” and share their stories as well. It became something that was so much bigger than, than what I ever could have done or if I was struggling and being a yes man and continuing on that trajectory of feeling sorry for myself in the industry and suffering with so many things.
So communication for me has been so important because it’s taught me that honesty gives way to so many things. It gives way to connecting with others. It gives way to being respected more because the more I advocate for myself and can communicate my needs in the industry and be like, “Actually, I think I’m worth more because of this”.
So I’m realizing now through the power of sharing stories is that now the industry can kind of change. Maybe we realize, Oh, this is not just me. So let’s… by standing up for this, I’m not just standing up for myself. I’m standing up for 6,000 other people across the world.

Michael (00:13:53)
Yeah, I feel like that’s really really important, Jessie. Because I think sometimes people can perceive science communication as you know, performance. The risk is that you’re maybe not being true to yourself.
And I think it’s a really important ingredient to effective communication to be genuine. So it’s really great to hear you echo that.
And I also just wanted to say something that I flagged in the back of my head earlier on when you were talking about lemurs is I never heard them described as a gateway drug before.
And I think, I’ve just, I just wanted to say that I think that’s a very creative way of making that an engaging topic.
So you know, you’re clearly an excellent communicator, Jessie. We could all do well to learn a few of your tips.

Jessie (00:14:42)
You say this as I feel like I’m stumbling through this interview and, and tripping over my words, but I appreciate it.

Michael (00:14:48)
Not at all.

Jen (00:14:51)
So I guess that leads us then to want to ask, you know, if you say that communication kind of saved you and saved your career, and you’ve been so successful at building a community and then sharing your mission. You’ve been blogging, you run workshops, you give talks.
People like us say, “please come on our podcast”. You know, communication really now is your
day job. What have you learned? What advice do you have for people who are trying to communicate potentially sensitive, honest thoughts with different audiences?

Jessie (00:15:23)
So for me, when I’m educating or communicating, I really want to know who the audience is ’cause I’m not going to talk at a high level if I’m talking to primary school students. I want to get down on their level and have a fun time and get them engaged.
And I feel like the imposter syndrome comes back into this where you think, “Oh, I’m an educator, I have to know everything. I have to know everything there is to know.”
And so people sometimes say too much when they’re educating. And really, you have to work out who your audience is, what are their values and what do they want to know? And how can you communicate that in the most engaging way?
Because ultimately, they don’t have to know everything that you know. And what is a really important teacher or educator piece of information is science communication means that you can look things up together. But knowing the right questions to ask, that is as important as knowing the answer.
But also, when I was writing my book, I think I read a lot of books and I kind of had this vision that Oh, I have to be a really professional writer to be an author. I have to be at this standard and I have to do it the way everybody else is doing it.
 My book has been pretty successful just… And it’s just me writing how I speak and just me having a conversation with my community.
And yeah, I had a lot of imposter syndrome ’cause I just self-published it. I did it myself. I didn’t go through any big publishing house and I didn’t have any funding. It’s all self-funded. And I just made it in the way that I would make it.
But that’s what makes it unique. And that’s the special thing about it is that there is no other book like this out there.
So I feel like balancing who your audience is and connecting with them and then having that special zest that you bring to the table and not doing things just because everybody else is doing them.
They’re like my two badly articulated ways of communicating, which is very ironic. But they’re like the two things that I try and embed into everything that I am…

Michael (00:17:18)
Jessie, they are very well articulated. No one has ever used the word “zest” on the podcast before.

Jessie (00:17:26)
Yes.

Michael (00:17:27)
So I think that is a great way of describing it. You know, and it just makes sense. You know, it’s about modeling an approach to thinking as well, isn’t it?
It’s not that you have all the right answers, but it’s about that collaborative approach to thinking through, you know, what could the answer be, which I think could do a lot of good because we don’t want to model that you should know all the right answers.
And you did mention imposter syndrome there, which I think can stem from that uncertainty of whether you really belong. And you know, maybe you don’t know all the right answers and therefore you don’t belong.
And you’ve made it a bit of a mission I guess to, to tackle imposter syndrome or to help people overcome the imposter syndrome. And it’s such a common experience.
So, you know, I’d love [for] you to tell us a little bit more about your own experience with imposterism and what you’ve learned about overcoming it, that you can share that advice with others.

Jessie (00:18:26)
While I was talking about how whatever you do that’s different makes you unique, it kind of cemented in my brain that however I’m different and however I think I’m not valuable is probably my value proposition. If I think I’m too young, I’m bringing a youthful perspective. If I think I’m not academic enough, I’m bringing that outsider perspective.
So, now when I walk into any situation, however I’m sitting and feeling as I’m inadequate, I’m not valuable in this space, I just flip it and be like, that’s exactly why I’m valuable in this space. Whatever I think I’m too of, that is what makes me different enough to have a unique perspective that’s really invaluable in this conversation.
Because what is going to progress in society in whatever we’re doing, how are we going to make things better if we have everybody at the table with the exact same accreditations, perspectives, opinions, life experiences? That’s not going to achieve anything because it’s all these people thinking the same, doing the same, nothing’s ever going to change.
We need people from all walks of life to be sitting at that table, to be bringing in their opinions. And then we can start to make some real change.
So I feel like… I know I didn’t talk about my imposter syndrome but like I’ve had… I’ve been at a conference and people have been talking to me like, “Oh, where are you from?” And I’m just saying, “Oh, I’m working for myself” and they literally turn in the other direction and don’t want to speak to me again.
So I’ve had a lot of experiences with people thinking that I’m 31, or I’m almost 31. People always say like, “Oh, you’re too young, can you really speak to managers? Oh I think you’re too young for this, I think you’re too young for this”.
I’m the oldest I’ve ever been in my life. And I feel like… I also feel like it just shows that people don’t respect young people. And young people have so many opinions, life experiences, beliefs, skills. And they’re not tainted by like, I’m a bit jaded from all the things that I’ve seen and heard.
But there’s people coming through. I’ll use the word zest again, zesty young people that have all that like oomph and they want to do all these things and they’re not burdened by all the I don’t know, the hurdles they’ve had to overcome or society or whatever.
So I feel like whatever people are stereotyping you as a way that you can’t do something or the way that makes you inferior, that’s kind of your superpower. And they’ve already highlighted to you the thing that you should be proud of and the thing that you should leverage going forward.

Jen (00:20:47)
I just think that is absolute gold, Jessie. And I can’t wait to share that perspective with our students.
So, just identifying that the very thing that is making you feel like you’re not good enough is the very reason why you are absolutely of the you know, utmost value in this particular situation.
I just think that reframing is so powerful ’cause one of the things we do share with our students is the reframing that a very good friend of mine has always done. And that is that she always says if she doesn’t feel like an imposter, it means she’s kind of just falling into old habits and doing boring stuff and not actually challenging herself to grow and learn.
Because feeling like an imposter is a sign that you’re actually stretching yourself. And I love that then. So, that’s the first step is to say, so actually feeling like I’m an imposter, that’s a good sign.
And then now, I’m going to embrace what it is that is making me feel like an imposter and realizing that that’s actually my superpower. I mean, that’s yeah, I think that’s just such great advice.

Jessie (00:21:44)
The two-step cure to curing imposter syndrome.

Jen (00:21:46)
Yeah, yeah, you’ve heard it here first.
We’ll market it next.

Michael (00:21:51)
Imposter syndrome is cured from here on in.
I wish someone had told me that.

Jessie (00:21:53)
Give me the royalties.

Michael (00:21:54)
Yeah.

Michael (00:21:58)
We’d like to learn a little bit more about you now Jessie, in the next stage of this podcast where we’ve got some quick fire, lighthearted questions to ask you.

Michael (00:22:18)
And the first one that I would like to ask is if you had to pick an alternative career to what you’re doing, what would it be?

Jessie (00:22:27)
Oh, that’s easy. I think I would be a kid’s show host on TV.

Michael (00:22:31)
Yeah.

Jessie (00:22:33)
I love, like I think this one plays in to me doing Bush kindy.
I think it would be the funnest job.

Michael (00:22:39)
And you would be excellent at it.

Jessie (00:22:41)
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Jen (00:22:43)
One of our wonderful colleagues in our SciComm teaching team, Catriona.
She, she as a child couldn’t decide whether she wanted to be a doctor or the host of Play School.
So I reckon we should get you and Cat together to do some shows, that would…

Jessie (00:22:55)
Yeah, we should start our own thing.
Yeah, it would be good.

Jen (00:22:59)
Next question Jessie is… Putting you on the spot, how would you describe your work in three words?
I guess your mission maybe. I know you, you know, you’ve got Lonely Conservationist. You also have a day job. But your mission, how would you describe that in three words?

Jessie (00:23:15)
Togetherness, healing and zesty.

Jen (00:23:20)
Ahh, Love it.
Zest is the word of the day.

Jessie (00:23:23)
It is.

Michael (00:23:24)
We’re having a zesty time here on the podcast.

Jessie (00:23:28)
Amen to that.

Michael (00:23:32)
You know, maybe a place where you would really have a zesty time would be a dinner party, Jessie.
And I’d like to ask you now, if you were hosting this zesty dinner party, in addition
to your other friends, you can invite along one scientist. You know, either living or
from history. Who would you invite and why?

Jessie (00:23:50)
I’ve actually been thinking a little bit about this recently maybe ’cause it’s been on my mind. Carl Linnaeus, the guy that invented binomial nomenclature, how we name everything with genus and species. He’s mentioned in like every book, but only about his naming.
I kind of want to know the rest of his life. Like, what was he up to? What is he doing? What’s his favourite food? Like we just keep hearing about how he named everything. But who is Carl? I really want to know more about Carl.

Jen (00:24:15)
It’s so true. ‘Cause if you think about someone like Darwin or Wallace, you know, we know absolutely pivotal people in the history of kind of understanding biology. We know a bit about them. We know a bit about where they lived and their family and the travels they did, their travel diaries. But you’re right, Carl Linnaeus is you know, behind the entire system that we learn about in biology. And I don’t know anything about him.

Jessie (00:24:38)
Right? And I feel bad for saying an old white man, but they kind of, they dominate the Natural History field back in the day when they were making pivotal things. So I apologise for choosing someone so basic.

Jen (00:24:48)
Yeah, yeah.
No, no apology required.
You can make sure all the other friends at your dinner party bring a whole lot of diversity to the room, so…

Jessie (00:24:56)
That’s true, they would.

Jen (00:25:00)
Next question is one that we’ve really touched on, but I’d love to hear your short answer to the question I guess.
And that is tell us about work life balance. What have you learned about how to achieve something along the lines of that Holy Grail?

Jessie (00:25:15)
Three words. Rest is productive. Until I learned that, I was not doing well. I was in this constant cycle of going too hard, burnout, going too hard, burnout.
When I realized that unless I’m keeping my own life sustainable, I could never contribute to sustainable anything else. I needed to be fit and healthy for the duration of my life to be able to consistently contribute to the cause.
That’s when I realized every time I’m sitting watching Selling Sunset, that’s productive. Every time I’m lying in my hammock, that is productive.
I think a lot of people forget that when cells don’t divide properly and they don’t, you don’t sleep properly and you don’t have the capacity to kind of heal your body over night time, that’s when you can get awful things like cancers and long-term sickness.
And even just burnout is really problematic. And it might put you off the career indefinitely if it gets to that point.
So when I learned that rest is productive, it got rid of my rest guilt. And that was something I was grappling with for a long time, just feeling like I had to be on all the time.
Spring only happens for a quarter of the year. We’re not supposed to be in a productive place for the entirety of our lives. Sometimes you’ve got to hibernate in winter and that’s a normal fluctuation of how things are.
So continually reminding myself that rest is productive, that is the best thing that I’ve ever done probably.

Michael (00:26:39)
Yeah, hear hear. I feel like we should write that out on uhh you know, sticky notes and put it all around, everywhere where we spend time.

Jen (00:26:49)
I think we need some new posters in our office, Michael.

Michael (00:26:52)
Yes, we’ll definitely be adding that. Jessie has just been delivering golden nugget after golden nugget, it’s just been absolutely fantastic.

Jen (00:26:59)
No, it’s been zesty.

Michael (00:27:01)
It’s been absolutely zesty, zesty to the power of zesty. So for the last bit of zesty information Jessie, I’d love to know what your top tip is for building a community.

Jessie (00:27:15)
Hmm, I think building a community is about being authentic and honest and giving a part of yourself and having that give and take relationship.
So I think the community started that I founded by me giving a part of myself, people relating and giving back. And then I had to continue to give, to continue to receive.
And I feel like there’s so much competition and gatekeeping that we need to get rid of all of that and we need to work together. Conservation has so limited resources, such limited funding.
And if we just realise that if we’re in a world with limits on all of the things that we have accessible to us, why don’t we pool our resources, pool our knowledge, pool our information. And the more we work together, the better things are going to be in the future.
So I admit fully, I created my community by total accident. I thought I was giving up on the industry. I didn’t expect to have 6,000 people be like, “Jessie, lead us”.
So I can’t really tell you how to create a community from scratch. But even amongst your friends and family, if you’re making sure that you’re giving a bit of yourself and making sure that you’re offering that vessel for them when they’re ready.
I feel like the more we communicate, the better things are. Like all of those advice columns or whatever you’ve seen on magazines from the 90s, or even up to now, there’s all those Reddit forums or podcasts. Every single bit of advice can kind of be culminated down into are you communicating effectively? ‘Cause if you are, you probably wouldn’t have this problem-lem. Problem-lem? Problem. I cannot communicate effectively by even saying one word.
But usually, even in your relationships, your parents, your friends, your siblings, if you have effective communication, the majority of the problems you’re seeing [are] probably going to dissipate.
So that’s probably how you strengthen your existing communities and grow them is just by being authentic and being a vessel for that open communication.

Jen (00:29:15)
Oh Jessie, I just feel this warm sense of joy at having had the opportunity to speak with you today. You shared so much of yourself with us, which gives us the permission to become more and more ourselves doing what we love. And I’m just so grateful to you for making time to speak with us today.
I hope everyone will read your book, spend some time on the website, read the blog, connect. And yeah, I just feel like today’s giving everybody permission to be yourself and to embrace those things about you that you don’t think are enough, those are the very things that the world needs.
So massive thanks to you, Jessie. I hope we’ll get to speak with you again.

Jessie (00:29:51)
And thank you. Thank you both so much for having me.
It was an absolute pleasure to gift you with my zesty nuggets.

Michael (00:29:59)
Yeah, thanks, thanks so much Jessie. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
I feel energised after this conversation. So uhm, I think it’s all down to the zesty nature of it. So thank you very much.
Have we said? We’ve said zesty too many times now, haven’t we?

Jessie (00:30:15)
It’s lost all meaning.

Michael (00:30:34)
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