Episode 70 – Interview with Dr Samantha Grover

To finish Season 9 of Let’s Talk SciComm, we had a truly wonderful conversation with Dr Samantha Grover, who leads the Soil-Atmosphere-Anthroposphere Lab at RMIT University in Melbourne, Australia.

Sam’s team explores the interconnections between food, climate change and people. They collaborate with farmers, NGOs, industry, government and other researchers around the world to more sustainably manage landscapes. They focus on high carbon systems such as peatlands, regenerative agriculture and composting. As a soil scientist, Sam applies techniques from soil physics, soil chemistry and soil microbiology with micrometeorology to explore the soil-plant-atmosphere continuum. She collaborates with economists, social scientists, policy analysist as well as other biological and physical scientists to generate whole-of-system knowledge. Through her teaching of Bachelors and Masters of Environmental Science, as well as her public engagement as a Superstar of STEM, President of Soil Science Australia, VIC, various Board and Committee roles and growing media profile, she communicates her research to create impact.

We talked with Sam about the many different types of science communication she’s involved with, including giving a TED talk and writing a children’s book. Sam has a wealth of scicomm experience and knowledge to share and we’re sure you’ll enjoy the conversation!

You can follow Sam and learn more about her work here:

Transcript

Jen (00:00:20)
Hello and welcome to Let’s Talk SciComm, a podcast by the University of Melbourne Science Communication Teaching Team. I’m Associate Professor Jen Martin and my wonderful co-host is Dr Michael Wheeler and we believe that science isn’t finished until it’s communicated.

Jen (00:00:45)
Hello everybody, I am so thrilled to welcome you to another episode of Let’s Talk SciComm.
I’m Jen and as always I am joined by my exceptionally good friend, colleague and co host, Michael. Hello Michael.

Michael (00:01:01)
Ooh. Hey, Jen.
That was an exceptionally good welcome this morning.
Excited to be here.

Jen (00:01:07)
Well, you know how excited I get doing these episodes with you. It’s like the most fun part of the week.

Michael (00:01:12)
It’s like Christmas.

Jen (00:01:13)
Exactly. Well, today is especially like Christmas. Because one of my very, very favourite people in the whole world, and I don’t say that lightly, is joining us today, Michael.
So I am beyond delighted to introduce you to Dr Samantha Grover, who leads the Soil-Atmosphere-Anthroposphere Lab at RMIT University. Hello Samantha.

Samantha (00:01:37)
Hey, Jen. Hey, Michael.

Jen (00:01:39)
So Michael, if you’re wondering what Soil-Atmosphere-Anthroposphere Lab means, Sam is interested in the interconnections and intersections between people, climate change and food.
And Sam is this amazing scientist, very successful and amazing scientist who has this incredible interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary background. So Samantha uses physics and chemistry and microbiology and all of these other approaches to understanding soil.
As you would gather by the fact that we’ve invited Sam to be on this podcast. As well as all of those kind of standard academic achievements, she’s a really passionate and very brilliant science communicator.
She’s given an incredible Ted talk, written a children’s book about soil. She’s a Superstar of STEM. She’s, you know, there’s a lot to talk about. So Sam, we’re so delighted that you have made time to join us today.

Samantha (00:02:37)
Well, it’s an absolute pleasure to get to be involved and, and to have a chat about science communication. It is something that I really enjoy. So it’s a delight to make time on a Friday morning to have a chat with you.

Michael (00:02:49)
Oh, it’s great. Thanks. Well, it’s a delight for us to have you on the podcast because we haven’t spoken to anyone that has quite the kind of unique combination of skills and experience that, that you have.

Jen (00:03:01)
So Michael, I do just have to briefly explain. When I said Sam is one of my very favorite people, I’m going to tell you my version of how we met.
Now, I have a notoriously terrible memory. So Sam, you might have a totally different version of this story.
But my memory is, that we were in year 11 at high school and some teacher who I can’t remember saying we want to set up an environment club, an environment collective. “Is anybody interested?”
And my memory is that my hand shot up and over the other side of the room, Sam’s hand shot up. We didn’t know each other at all. But we kind of had this mutual connection over the environment and activism and leadership.
And I would say we’ve been very, very firm friends ever since Sam. Is there a different version of that story that my mind has… forgotten?

Samantha (00:03:49)
No, I think that definitely matches with my recollection as well.

Michael (00:03:54)
Did you set up the environment club? How did that go?

Samantha (00:03:56)
Yeah, we sure did. We set up the Environment Committee and we got other people involved. And we, you know, tapped into schemes outside of the school where we could go and clean up local beaches.
And yeah, I remember at that time being both inspired and depressed and frustrated at the slow pace of change. And here we are.

Jen (00:04:18)
And nothing’s changed, right? That was more than 30 years ago, letting on how old Sam and I are.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree Sam. To that mix, that bittersweet mix of you know, I found like-minded people and we’re going to do something useful. But oh my gosh, things are changing so slowly.

Michael (00:04:34)
Hmm.

Samantha (00:04:35)
Yeah. And I think that’s what has really inspired me more into and develop my skills in the science communication space. Because I went on from the environment committee work to be involved in the environment department at the student union. And to study soil science and chemistry and political science and really devote myself to the science of how we could fix our environmental problem, particularly, climate change.
And really being involved with the IPCC work back in 2018, really made me realise that you know, the science is so there. The science communication is not.

Jen (00:05:15)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Samantha (00:05:17)
And so I feel like it’s a moral obligation to push myself into this space, which you know, when we, when Jen and I were students at university, I absolutely hated anything to do with you know, standing up and talking about my science in front of an audience.
It was like the most terrifying low point of my degree when I had to give a final presentation at the end of my semester-long research. But I’ve really actively worked to turn that around, from being something that I hate and am not very good at to something that I really enjoy.

Jen (00:05:48)
Well, I think there’s yeah, I mean, there’s so much I want to get to in this discussion about all the things that you have done and the potential impact.
But in this podcast, we do really love to go back a bit with our guests before we go into all of the things that you’ve learned and the impact that your communication work is having.
I’d love to hear how did you get interested in science in the first place? You know, was there a person, a teacher or parent, a place and experience? ‘Cause by the time we were there in year 11, you already knew that you had this really firm commitment to the environment. Can you identify where that came from?

Samantha (00:06:21)
Yeah, it’s a good question. I always liked learning and school. I guess I enjoyed and was good at science. And that affirmation that you know, continued positive affirmation of you’re good at something. And so you enjoy doing it. And so you get better at it. It’s kind of self fulfilling.

Michael (00:06:43)
Hmm yeah, definitely is. And how about your journey into science communication then?
When did it kind of become apparent that working to communicate to different audiences was a priority for you?

Samantha (00:06:57)
That was definitely much later. So as I alluded to, having to stand up and give a talk about my science was a low point of my university degree. And I would say that it wasn’t a part of my formal science training.
And so I worked really hard on making that less terrifying and really preparing myself. But it still wasn’t, it’s kind of like brushing your teeth. It wasn’t my… It was something that you had to do. But it wasn’t something that I really enjoyed.
So I think it was probably more, I mentioned before about contributing to the IPCC process in 2018. A couple of years before that, right at the end of 2016, I was part of the first voyage to Antarctica as part of the Homeward Bound Leadership Program for Women Scientists. And I did not sign up for that, for the science communication training.
That was like the lowest on my list of things that I was interested in. I signed up for the leadership training component of it. But there was a really strong science communication, like a third of the program. And so I, you know, reluctantly participated in it and started to better appreciate the value and the power of it.
And I also found that the work that I had done just for communicating to a science audience has started to pay off. And that actually maybe I wasn’t so bad at this.
That combination of a bit more exposure to the training and then involvement in the IPCC process, that’s what inspired me to then apply for the Superstars of STEM program, which I actually got rejected from.
And part of the Homeward Bound Leadership Training inspired me to try again, which isn’t something that, was something that I had, an approach that I’d taken before in my scientific career. I tended to pursue things that I was really good at and not worry about the things that I wasn’t.
But I felt that science communication was important enough that I should give it another go and ask for some more feedback. And with some support from some other superstars, former Superstars of STEM, I got into the program. That was super useful.
All different styles of science communication. We were you know, both pushed into doing and had some practice doing and heard from people who were really good at it.
And yeah, just got, got encouraged and [a] bit of institutional support as well. Like you’re in this program, so it’s okay that you can devote some of your time to it. It doesn’t have to be completely on the weekend.

Michael (00:09:31)
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think just hearing you speak there. A lot of points you make resonate with me. And I guess when you, when you initially think about science communication or when I initially thought about it anyway, it gives you a sense of OK, science communication is something where you’re kind of in the spotlight, you’re kind of performing.
 And that’s an uncomfortable situation to be in. But actually, you’re communicating anyway. You’re doing science communication anyway as part of your, your job of being a scientist. I completely hear you as well about goes to the conference talks. You know, and if your conference talk is the last talk of the conference. You just, you’re just waiting for it to happen.

Samantha (00:10:05)
I’ve been there, I’ve been that slot. Yeah.

Michael (00:10:08)
And you really wanted to get it out of the way early, so you can actually enjoy the conference.

Samantha (00:10:13)
Yeah. Well, you know, you were speaking Michael about being in the spotlight. And I feel like it’s something that has become so embedded, or bedded down for me that I forget to even mention it, which is that prior to my involvement with the Homeward Bound program, I had seen science communication, people who were really up there in the spotlight about their science, as it being about them, and that I wasn’t the kind of person who could do that.
And it really totally changed my way of thinking about it when it was suggested that it’s actually not about you, it’s about the science. And the science is so important. It’s so… Like, I feel that what I do is critical to the continued existence of humans on the planet. So it’s really important. And so, it’s for that reason that I can be in the spotlight, right? ‘Cause it’s not about me, it’s about the science. And it’s about our survival as a species.

Michael (00:11:14)
Yeah, that’s a really great point I think for anyone listening who’s kind of a bit hesitant. I think adopting a mindset like that can be really really helpful.

Jen (00:11:22)
And I think it’s not just about the science. It’s also about the audience. And it’s the audiences that you bring in this whole idea of science being quite elitist and exclusive.
And you saying, “No, no, actually, I’m going to be inclusive. I’m going to bring people into this world and help them to understand that it shouldn’t be a privilege to get access to this information. That everyone should be able to understand this information.”
And so yeah, it’s… You’re kind of just the conduit, right? It isn’t really about you. And I think that shift is really really powerful for people who do have that huge sense of trepidation. And you know, as you say Sam, your training came from you putting yourself forward and dealing with failure, but putting yourself forward for these kind of external programs.
The training that allowed you to feel more confident in being a communicator, that didn’t come within any kind of standard process, right?

Samantha (00:12:16)
No.

Jen (00:12:16)
You didn’t get it in your undergraduate training. You didn’t get it through your PhD. Not as a postdoc. You had to be brave and put yourself forward.

Samantha (00:12:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jen (00:12:24)
So Sam, I feel like there’s so many different kinds of communicating you’ve done that I’d like to explore. But the one that I want to begin with is talking about your children’s book.
Because I think it’s a really important one, because lots of us might think it’d be really cool to write a kid’s book about my science. You know, I’d like to think that I’m inspiring the next generation and helping kids to engage with science.
But the reality is that it’s a huge amount of work. You’re an academic. We’re academics. We know what that means. You’re doing research. You’re teaching. You’ve got huge amounts of administrative and service work. You know, time is short.
The fact that you actually managed to make this book a reality I think is a huge achievement. I’d love to hear a bit about the story of bringing Exploring Soils to life and what you learned in the process. And you know, how hard was it to do? ‘Cause I’m guessing quite hard.

Samantha (00:13:17)
It was like a fun side project, but it has been really much more, I think, impactful than I had anticipated. And I would really credit both my children and the Soil Science Society for that.
Because I got the seed of the idea to write the book when I was on maternity leave. I wasn’t working, but I really [wanted] to stay connected with my professional cohort of soil scientists. So I paid for myself to go to a conference, a soils conference, which fortunately for me was not an international conference, but not too far away up in Bendigo.
And there, the announcement was made that the next year, 2015, was the International year of soil. And all of us in the audience were called, were you know, charged with taking a story about soil, taking something about soil science to a wider audience, right? ‘Cause we’re there at a scientific conference talking to each other, which we love to do.

Jen (00:14:18)
Yep.

Samantha (00:14:19)
The call from Richard McEwen, who was the Victorian president at that time was to think of a way that we could speak about soil to a wider audience.
But I’m at home, on maternity leave, spending a lot of time, you know, reading kids’ books and going, going to story time at the library.
And so I thought, Well, maybe, I’ll write a children’s book about soil. There’s lots of great children’s books about kind of natural conservation, ecosystem kind of themes, but they all focus on animals. They predominantly focus on animals, occasionally on plants.
I’d never come across anything about soil. But like… Plants grow in soil and animals need plants. And soil’s fascinating. Children love soil.
So I kind of put my situation and this international call together to dream up the idea of the book. And it was ahh, you say it’s difficult, but it was kind of a labor of love, right?
I would, you know, steal an hour out of my crazy life early in the morning when my partner was at home and I would go over to a cafe near my house so I could have some quiet time away from my two kids to write the text.
And in that way, over six months or so, I drafted the text. And then, I explored my networks. How do you get a children’s book published? It wasn’t something I’d done before.
So I explored with the Soil Science Society. I actually connected with another high school friend, Sonia Lloyd, who had self-published a book and explored all of those options.
And then I started looking at commercial publishers ’cause I didn’t have the money to self-publish the book. And it was, it was lucky.
It was that I was really fortunate to be at the time when CSIRO Publishing, who I knew of course from scientific publishing, when they were getting into children’s books. They had a couple, but they were looking for more.
And so this idea of a children’s book about soil resonated with the commissioning editor, Brianna. And she worked with me. She then worked with me over… I was talking about being frustrated with the pace of change in the environmental and climate space, I was shocked at how long it takes for a book to come out.
It was, the International Year of Soil was well and truly passed by the time the book came out in 2017. But it still really resonated with audiences.

Jen (00:16:40)
And it’s a fabulous book. If you haven’t looked, whether you have kids in your life or not, it’s just a really fun read with great illustrations too.

Michael (00:16:48)
Yeah. And Sam, I often find that when you communicate to different audiences, that there’s kind of transferable skills in terms of you know, you learn something that you can apply when you’re communicating in another realm.
I think writing a kid’s book is probably quite a very different audience to other audiences that you might be communicating with.
So yeah, curious to kind of ask you a little bit more about you know, what did you learn about that process of putting your ideas into a format that is going to be engaging to an audience of children? And did you find that had a crossover benefits to other aspects of science communication?

Samantha (00:17:28)
Definitely had crossover benefits in that I’d always spoken to my kids about the work that I was doing in quite like, adult terms. So the language used in this children’s book is actually quite, I have found it to be very useful language to use with adults who are not soil scientists, which is the majority of the adult population. So I’ve found the book really resonates with children. But their teachers and parents often tell me that they have learnt just as much. It’s things they didn’t know. I’ve actually used the book at Science Meets Parliament, and I found it really resonates well with members of Parliament. Because as scientists, we’re so… our training is about communicating to our peers.

Michael (00:18:17)
Yeah, that’s exactly what I was thinking when you were saying you know, you were using it at the likes of Science Meets Parliament, that… It’s really about simplifying the language, but retaining those core ideas, you know, that you’ve been able to do.

Samantha (00:18:29)
And visuals. It really, really… I mean, I knew pictures were important, but it’s so solidified for me, the critical importance of visuals.

Jen (00:18:41)
But Sam, that’s interesting though, ’cause one of the other things that I really wanted to ask you about was your TED Talk. So you gave a TED Talk in 2020 called, Can food help solve climate change? And, you know, TED Talks are much less about visuals. TED Talks are much much more about the storytelling and the words.

So given that you’d sort of come to this realisation about the importance of visuals, I’d love to hear, I guess, what were some of the learning that you took from, from Exploring Soils that then went into this amazing TED Talk?
And you know, and I know you, you know, you’ve told this story of you being a very reluctant, nervous public speaker. But if everyone goes and watch the TED Talk, you know, you really smash it like it is really good. And, you know, I had the privilege of getting to hear you practice. And I know you put a huge amount of work into this talk. I mean, I’d love to hear about that process of a really different style of communication and for a very different audience.

Samantha (00:19:38)
With the TED Talk, I actually… shows that program TEDxPerth, because I felt I had something really important to share. But also because they have a program of mentoring and training and working with people, speaking coaches to develop, to develop a good talk. And so I knew I would learn from that.

Michael (00:20:00)
Yeah, I have seen your TED Talk, and you did an excellent job. You smashed it, as Jen says.
And it’s great to hear that you’ve gone from being really nervous, and I guess terrified about public speaking, that it’s a kind of a daunting thing to do to then smashing a TED Talk.
Kind of reminds me of my umm relationship. Broccoli, you know, I find it quite daunting and not a pleasant experience. I haven’t quite got to the stage of smashing it and really excelling and succeeding at it yet.

Samantha (00:20:33)
Just some more butter and garlic, Michael.

Michael (00:20:36)
Let me write that, let me write that down. Let me write that down.
But it’s obviously a you know, quite a, it’s a transformational process, right? To go from that point to that point.

Samantha (00:20:46)
Absolutely.

Michael (00:20:47)
And you’ve, you’ve gotten the book, the TED Talk, Superstars of STEM, and that, you know, the other examples of training in science communication that you’ve received.
I guess I’m curious to kind of ask, is there anything that you’ve, that you’ve learned from those experiences, or those examples of training that really kind of stick out in your mind that, about how to communicate science more effectively?
Is there anything that kind of sticks out in your mind as something that you still think of today?

Samantha (00:21:18)
Something that I’ve taken from those experiences, but also that I think that I’ve borrowed directly and learned directly from Jen is taking a structured approach.
Rather than just like I know about my science and I’m going to share it with someone, really planning. And I’m, I don’t know if I’m going to get the acronym wrong, because it’s all a little while since I’ve used it.
But I’m thinking GAMPER, like my goal, my audience, my mode of communication, and then evaluating and reviewing what I’ve done. It’s time consuming, and you can’t just like jump in and do it, but it’s really useful.

Jen (00:21:57)
Hmm, 100%. Yeah, GAMPER comes from Julia and Sarah at Visibility Co, who have long been part of the Homeward Bound movement, just this idea that we waste our time and our audience’s time if we don’t think very strategically about what it is that we’re actually trying to achieve with a particular communication endeavor, and what message is going to actually resonate with a particular audience. ‘Cause we might have a message that we always want to share, but it may not be the right message for that audience.

Michael (00:22:27)
Yeah, that’s a really good point. And speaking of time, and the audience’s time, we have reached the time in the podcast where we’re going to shift gears now a little bit and we’re going to round out our chat with some quick questions to finish off, lighthearted.

Samantha (00:22:40)
OK, hope I’ve got some quick answers.

Michael (00:22:45)
Yeah. Let me just…

Jen (00:22:47)
That’s the goal. The goal of this is quick questions and quick answers.

Michael (00:22:52)
So I’m just going to take out my stopwatch now.

Michael (00:23:05)
If you had to pick an alternative career Sam to what you’re doing, what would it be?

Samantha (00:23:12)
Oh, that’s really tough because I love soil science so much.

Michael (00:23:17)
Yep. We like to make them tough.

Samantha (00:23:21)
Can you come back to me? Come back to me on that one.

Jen (00:23:22)
OK, while you’re thinking about that one, the next one is… These questions are a bit mean actually, Michael. We’re like, “Oh, they’re just so quick”. But you know, if you want to think about them…
The next question is how would you describe your work, what you’re currently doing in three words?

Samantha (00:23:38)
Connecting. Collaborating. Creating.

Jen (00:23:41)
Oh, so good.
So good.

Michael (00:23:41)
I like it. And the alliteration as well. I think that’s the first time we’ve had such a nice answer. Excellent.
So the next question that I’d like to ask is now, if you’re hosting a dinner party in addition to your other friends, you can invite along one scientist either living or from history. Who would you invite and why?

Samantha (00:24:02)
Hmm, I think I would invite Dr Alison Hester who’s an ecologist who leads a research farm in Scotland where they’re doing some super interesting work with organic soils and climate change?
Because yeah, just really love to have dinner with her and find out more about what’s going on on the other side of the world in this area that I’m really interested in.

Jen (00:24:26)
And do you think she’d bring some delicious food from her?
You know, some home produce?

Michael (00:24:29)
Yeah.

Samantha (00:24:31)
I’m sure she would.
Yeah, I reckon we’d be eating dairy and deer and maybe some sheep.

Jen (00:24:36)
Excellent. The next question is what’s the best thing you’ve learned so far about managing work life balance?

Samantha (00:24:45)
I think what I’m really meditating on at the moment is that it’s up to me. That my employer would have me work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and in an alternate reality. You know, that times three and I’m never going to be able to do that.
So it’s up to me to manage, to say no to more things. And that if I take time to do the things with my family and personally that are really important to me first, not last, then I have the energy to devote to my work, which I’d also really love.

Michael (00:25:18)
Hmm, yeah, that’s a really good point.

Jen (00:25:21)
That’s wisdom right there.
Are you taking notes Michael? I am.

Michael (00:25:23)
Yeah. All righty. So for the last question then. You’ve shared some great advice and tips around science communication. So I wanted to ask what would be your top tip for communicating in an engaging way?

Samantha (00:25:39)
My top tip would be to really work out who you are and bring that person as honestly as you can to the communication opportunity.
We’re so focused on bringing our science. But if you want to communicate engagingly, you need to bring yourself as a person as well.
And that’s something that we’re kind of trained out of doing in science, right? We’re trained to be objective. We’re trained to be professional. But you really need to bring yourself.

Michael (00:26:07)
Yeah. And also because I guess it can be perceived that science communication is like a performance, and a performance is where you’re pretending to be someone that you’re not. But I think that’s maybe a bit of a, a pitfall.

Samantha (00:26:23)
It is a performance, but you got to pretend to be yourself, your best self.

Michael (00:26:27)
You could be genuine and true to yourself while you’re performing.

Samantha (00:26:32)
Yeah.

Jen (00:26:33)
Yeah. And audiences are really smart, right? I mean, I think these words, kind of ‘authenticity’, and ‘being geninue’. You know, they get bandied around a lot. And we all have this kind of sense of what that means. But because the words get quite overused, it can be hard to really understand what that might look like.
But I think audiences are really clever. They can tell if you’re putting on a persona that’s not yourself. And I think that issue of you know, sort of, sometimes we have our enthusiasm dampened down. You know, we’re not meant to be too human or too emotional or too, too invested in values as scientists. It’s all meant to be very aloof and kind of above board. But that’s not what audiences connect with.
And if we can bring something truer about ourselves to share with an audience. That, that’s when the magic happens. But I think it takes courage. I don’t think it’s necessarily easy, but I think it’s something to try and feel safer and more comfortable doing.

Michael (00:27:28)
Yep, absolutely. So, Sam. Well, thank you for bringing your true self to our chat today. It’s been a pleasure having you on the podcast.

Samantha (00:27:37)
It’s been such a pleasure to chat with you and me.

Jen (00:27:39)
We can’t let Sam off the hook. Do you have an alternative, alternative career idea?
We can’t let you go without asking if you have an answer.

Samantha (00:27:46)
Yeah, yeah, I think I do. I’m gonna like bravely say my, my true you know, 7 year old aspiration, which is that I would like to be… My alternative career would be some kind of amalgamation of the Prime Minister, The Queen, the head of the UN.

Jen (00:28:05)
How do we make that happen, Sam? I really really really want you with all of your grace and wisdom and respect and everything that I adore about you.
I want you to be in that position of power. How, how do we make that happen?

Samantha (00:28:21)
Hmm, I don’t know. But yeah, I do really love what I’m currently doing, which is teaching and learning about soils. And yeah, maybe I can have a few more conversations with, with people in those roles.

Jen (00:28:37)
Well Sam, as Michael said, we are so pleased that you are able to make time to have a conversation with us today.
I love that you and I are not only still very very dear friends, but that we share a lot of our passion and interest in work. And to be able to connect with you professionally like this is really special.
So thank you for making time. We will share links to all of your amazing endeavours on our podcast show notes. And I hope we’ll get to speak again soon.

Michael (00:29:03)
Thank you Sam. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Samantha (00:29:06)
Thanks so much for having me, Michael.
And the last thing that I want to leave you with is an even more kind of out there science communication opportunity that I’ve been involved in, which is called the Soils Project.
And this is actually a collaboration with artists, indigenous artists from Australia. artists from traditional communities in Indonesia and artists from the Netherlands, including refugees and people from all over the world, who now call their home in the Netherlands.
And this, this is like a collaboration workshop platform which [has] resulted in an art exhibition in Australia. And next year it’ll be showing in the Netherlands. And then there’ll be a final kind of 2025 version of the work in Indonesia, so soils and artists are coming together as well.

Jen (00:29:53)
Wow.

Jen (00:29:57)
Yeah, that sounds absolutely incredible. We will make sure we share whatever the relevant link or links is to that, cause that sounds amazing.
So thank you Sam. We’re so grateful to you for speaking with us today. We just absolutely love all the work that you’re doing and I’m sure we’ll invite you back onto the podcast again soon to hear more.

Michael (00:30:35)
And that is a wrap on Season 9 of Let’s Talk SciComm.
Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our wonderful production team, Stephanie Wong and Steven Tang for making these episodes happen behind the scenes.
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